Interesting MS Comments
CIE-Keith
keith@christianexchange.org
Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:56:49 -0700
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If you outlaw Linux then only outlaws will have Linux=20
Keith
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Vaughn Treude=20
To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 8:28 PM
Subject: Re: Interesting MS Comments
I think you've hit the nail on the head about one of the most likely =
ways for MS and others to attack open source. They can't prohibit it =
outright, just like they can't directly prohibit free speech or guns in =
our great country. But Linux could conceivably be used as a tool to =
violate the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (or whatever that outrage is =
called) and they could try to outlaw open-source code for drivers for =
these kinds of devices.=20
Besides that, a lot of Linux people have also been involved in the =
smuggling of encryption, oops I mean "munitions", over national borders. =
So they'll have to find some way to prevent PGP from running in =
Windows, probably refusing to issue some sort of "approval certificate" =
that will be required for Windows apps in the future. The government =
could require Linux distros to incorporate a similar scheme, just like =
automakers are required to put in airbags whether the customers want =
them or not.=20
Those are just two examples of "threats" that could justify government =
intervention in open source code. Restrict the right to use open source =
in too many areas, and Linux will end up as a swiss cheese system =
riddled with buggy and unmodifiable proprietary code. They've been =
pursuing a similar tactic with private gun ownership-- create SO many =
regulations, prohibitions and conditions for ownership and use of a =
weapon, that even if you're not an ex-felon, you can't legally use it to =
protect yourself in 99% of the situations where you'd really need it. =
(And these days, most felonies are not even violent crimes.) But I =
digress. You may not agree with my pro-gun enthusiasm, but I think the =
metaphor is a good one. We shouldn't be paranoid-- but we must be =
eternally vigilant.=20
Vaughn Treude=20
=20
Todd Hought wrote:=20
Here's the scary part, every one of US sees that this is just a =
bunch of=20
malarkey, but Joe Consumer doesn't. Regular people are easily =
influenced by=20
what they read and see, and most people out there would see =
something like=20
this and think "Those Open Source people really ARE undermining =
those nice=20
people who built my Windows...." All it would take, is one powerful, =
idiot=20
congressperson, to put a bug like this into the system, and it just =
COULD be=20
illegal to write free software, let's face it, we're not being shown =
in a=20
good light after that MPAA fiasco, and it isn't even over yet.=20
Somebody on /. posted a good comment about an open letter to every =
single=20
representative, written by every one of us (read: the open source =
community),=20
included with say, a full copy of the Debian Distro (all 10+ CD's) =
and a copy=20
of every other distro, even the teeny tiny ones, just so that people =
in power=20
would get a clearer picture of what innovation people like us have =
created=20
for the world they live in. I'm all for it, let's get 'em!=20
-Todd=20
On Friday 16 February 2001 11:24, you wrote:=20
> My thoughts exactly, Trent.=20
>=20
> Also, who else has more money, power, and influence to mount a =
legal=20
> attack against GPL/LGPL/ect. If they can poke holes in the legal=20
> protections guaranteed by the Open Source licenses, the end is =
near.=20
>=20
> On Friday 16 February 2001 11:13, you wrote:=20
> > Hardly clueless, but obviously scared.=20
> >=20
> > MS is signaling the start of a *major* disinformation campaign. =
OS=20
> > market share is obviously partly in play, but arguing open =
source is=20
> > anti-competitive would indicate Microsoft is making a strategic =
move.=20
> >=20
> > Maybe they want to eliminate GNU or Java style licenses. Also, =
much=20
> > open source software seems to be developed by quasi-cartels. An =
IBM -=20
> > SUN cartel disguised as an open source collaboration should =
frighten=20
> > Microsoft.=20
> >=20
> > > -----Original Message-----=20
> > > From: plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
> > > [mailto:plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us]On Behalf =
Of=20
> > > Deepak Saxena=20
> > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:21 AM=20
> > > To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
> > > Subject: Re: Interesting MS Comments=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > It shows how clueless and scared Microsoft is about open =
source at the=20
> > > moment.=20
> > >=20
> > > ~Deepak=20
> > >=20
> > > On Feb 16 2001, at 09:12, Lucas Vogel was caught saying:=20
> > > > Not only was this posted on Slashdot yesterday, but it had =
over=20
> > >=20
> > > 1300 or so=20
> > >=20
> > > > comments posted to it.=20
> > > >=20
> > > > It's a good insight to the views some of the MS executives =
have on=20
> > > > open source, but I really don't think it has any teeth - =
even if MS=20
> > > > does.=20
> > > >=20
> > > > IMHO,=20
> > > >=20
> > > > Lucas=20
> > > >=20
> > > >=20
> > > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=20
> > > > Lucas Vogel=20
> > > > Exponent, Inc.=20
> > > > lvogel@exponent.com=20
> > > > 623-587-6739 work=20
> > > > 623-587-4191 fax=20
> > > > =
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=20
> > > > http://www.exponent.com=20
> > > >=20
> > > > > -----Original Message-----=20
> > > > > From: Jeffrey Pyne [mailto:jpyne@worldatwork.org]=20
> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:03 AM=20
> > > > > To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
> > > > > Subject: Interesting MS Comments=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > I saw a link to this article on another list and found it =
amusing:=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > =
http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=3Dmarketsquote99_news.ht&=20
> > > > > s=3DAOospdBaQTWl=20
> > > > > jcm9z=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > (If it hasn't already been posted to Slashdot, I'm sure it =
will=20
> > > > > soon.)=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > A couple excerpts:=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > "Microsoft Corp.'s Windows operating-system chief, Jim=20
> > > > > Allchin, says that=20
> > > > > freely distributed software code such as rival Linux could =
> > > > > stifle innovation=20
> > > > > and that legislators need to understand the threat."=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > -and-=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > "I'm an American, I believe in the American Way," he said. =
"I=20
> > > > > worry if the=20
> > > > > government encourages open source, and I don't think we've =
done=20
> > > > > enough education of policy makers to understand the =
threat."=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Well heck afire! I didn't realize that Linux was =
UNAMERICAN. I=20
> > > > > am unsubscribing from this list immediately, and when I =
get home I=20
> > > > > am going to=20
> > > > > blow away my Slackware 7.1 installation (evil, evil!) and=20
> > > > > install Windows=20
> > > > > 2000. (To do so I'll just need to stop by Fry's on the =
way=20
> > > > > home to pick up=20
> > > > > and extra 256Mb of RAM-- good thing it's on sale for =
$44.95.)=20
> > > > > I'm just glad=20
> > > > > Mr. Allchin warned us all before it was too late....=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > :)=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > ~Jeff=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > ________________________________________________=20
> > > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your =
> > > > > mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape =
to=20
> > > > > write mail.=20
> > > > >=20
> > > > > Plug-discuss mailing list -=20
> > > > > Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
> > > > > =
http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20
> > > >=20
> > > > ________________________________________________=20
> > > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your =
mail=20
> > >=20
> > > doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write =
mail.=20
> > >=20
> > > > Plug-discuss mailing list - =
Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
> > > > =
http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20
> > >=20
> > > --=20
> > > Deepak Saxena - deepak@csociety.purdue.edu - =
phone://602.790.0500=20
> > >=20
> > > call me 'evil' call me 'tide is on your side' anything that =
you want=20
> > > anybody knows you can conjure anything by the dark of the moon =
> > > - Tori Amos, "Suede"=20
> > >=20
> > > ________________________________________________=20
> > > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your =
mail=20
> > > doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write =
mail.=20
> > >=20
> > > Plug-discuss mailing list - =
Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
> > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20
> >=20
> > ________________________________________________=20
> > See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail =
doesn't=20
> > post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.=20
> >=20
> > Plug-discuss mailing list - =
Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss=20
________________________________________________=20
See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail =
doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.=20
Plug-discuss mailing list - Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
--=20
*****************
Nakota Software, Inc.
Custom Industrial Software Development
=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If you outlaw Linux then only outlaws =
will have=20
Linux </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Keith</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:vaughn@nakota-software.com"=20
title=3Dvaughn@nakota-software.com>Vaughn Treude</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us"=20
=
title=3Dplug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us>plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.pho=
enix.az.us</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, February 16, 2001 =
8:28=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: Interesting MS=20
Comments</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I think you've hit the nail on the head about one of =
the most=20
likely ways for MS and others to attack open source. They =
can't=20
prohibit it outright, just like they can't directly prohibit free =
speech or=20
guns in our great country. But Linux could conceivably be used =
as a tool=20
to violate the Digital Millenium Copyright Act (or whatever that =
outrage is=20
called) and they could try to outlaw open-source code for drivers for =
these=20
kinds of devices.=20
<P>Besides that, a lot of Linux people have also been involved in the=20
smuggling of encryption, oops I mean "munitions", over national =
borders. =20
So they'll have to find some way to prevent PGP from running in =
Windows,=20
probably refusing to issue some sort of "approval certificate" that =
will be=20
required for Windows apps in the future. The government could =
require=20
Linux distros to incorporate a similar scheme, just like automakers =
are=20
required to put in airbags whether the customers want them or not.=20
<P>Those are just two examples of "threats" that could justify =
government=20
intervention in open source code. Restrict the right to use open =
source=20
in too many areas, and Linux will end up as a swiss cheese system =
riddled with=20
buggy and unmodifiable proprietary code. They've been pursuing a =
similar=20
tactic with private gun ownership-- create SO many regulations,=20
prohibitions and conditions for ownership and use of a weapon, that =
even if=20
you're not an ex-felon, you can't legally use it to protect yourself =
in 99% of=20
the situations where you'd really need it. (And these days, most =
felonies are not even violent crimes.) But I digress. You =
may not=20
agree with my pro-gun enthusiasm, but I think the metaphor is a =
good=20
one. We shouldn't be paranoid-- but we must be eternally =
vigilant.=20
<P>Vaughn Treude <BR> =20
<P>Todd Hought wrote:=20
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=3D"CITE">Here's the scary part, every one of US sees =
that=20
this is just a bunch of <BR>malarkey, but Joe Consumer doesn't. =
Regular=20
people are easily influenced by <BR>what they read and see, and most =
people=20
out there would see something like <BR>this and think "Those Open =
Source=20
people really ARE undermining those nice <BR>people who built my=20
Windows...." All it would take, is one powerful, idiot =
<BR>congressperson,=20
to put a bug like this into the system, and it just COULD be =
<BR>illegal to=20
write free software, let's face it, we're not being shown in a =
<BR>good=20
light after that MPAA fiasco, and it isn't even over yet.=20
<P>Somebody on /. posted a good comment about an open letter to =
every single=20
<BR>representative, written by every one of us (read: the open =
source=20
community), <BR>included with say, a full copy of the Debian Distro =
(all 10+=20
CD's) and a copy <BR>of every other distro, even the teeny tiny =
ones, just=20
so that people in power <BR>would get a clearer picture of what =
innovation=20
people like us have created <BR>for the world they live in. I'm all =
for it,=20
let's get 'em!=20
<P>-Todd=20
<P>On Friday 16 February 2001 11:24, you wrote: <BR>> My thoughts =
exactly, Trent. <BR>> <BR>> Also, who else has more money, =
power, and=20
influence to mount a legal <BR>> attack against =
GPL/LGPL/ect. If=20
they can poke holes in the legal <BR>> protections guaranteed by =
the Open=20
Source licenses, the end is near. <BR>> <BR>> On Friday 16 =
February=20
2001 11:13, you wrote: <BR>> > Hardly clueless, but obviously =
scared.=20
<BR>> > <BR>> > MS is signaling the start of a *major*=20
disinformation campaign. OS <BR>> > market share is =
obviously=20
partly in play, but arguing open source is <BR>> > =
anti-competitive=20
would indicate Microsoft is making a strategic move. <BR>> > =
<BR>>=20
> Maybe they want to eliminate GNU or Java style licenses. =
Also,=20
much <BR>> > open source software seems to be developed by=20
quasi-cartels. An IBM - <BR>> > SUN cartel disguised as =
an open=20
source collaboration should frighten <BR>> > Microsoft. =
<BR>> >=20
<BR>> > > -----Original Message----- <BR>> > > =
From:=20
plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us <BR>> > > [<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:plug-discuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us">mailto:plug-d=
iscuss-admin@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us</A>]On=20
Behalf Of <BR>> > > Deepak Saxena <BR>> > > Sent: =
Friday,=20
February 16, 2001 10:21 AM <BR>> > > To:=20
plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us <BR>> > > Subject: =
Re:=20
Interesting MS Comments <BR>> > > <BR>> > > =
<BR>> >=20
> <BR>> > > It shows how clueless and scared Microsoft =
is about=20
open source at the <BR>> > > moment. <BR>> > > =
<BR>>=20
> > ~Deepak <BR>> > > <BR>> > > On Feb 16 =
2001, at=20
09:12, Lucas Vogel was caught saying: <BR>> > > > Not =
only was=20
this posted on Slashdot yesterday, but it had over <BR>> > =
>=20
<BR>> > > 1300 or so <BR>> > > <BR>> > > =
>=20
comments posted to it. <BR>> > > > <BR>> > > =
> It's=20
a good insight to the views some of the MS executives have on =
<BR>> >=20
> > open source, but I really don't think it has any teeth - =
even if=20
MS <BR>> > > > does. <BR>> > > > <BR>> =
> >=20
> IMHO, <BR>> > > > <BR>> > > > Lucas =
<BR>>=20
> > > <BR>> > > > <BR>> > > >=20
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D <BR>> > > > Lucas Vogel <BR>>=20
> > > Exponent, Inc. <BR>> > > > =
lvogel@exponent.com=20
<BR>> > > > 623-587-6739 work <BR>> =
>=20
> > 623-587-4191 fax <BR>> > > > =
=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D <BR>> > > > <A=20
href=3D"http://www.exponent.com">http://www.exponent.com</A> =
<BR>> >=20
> > <BR>> > > > > -----Original Message----- =
<BR>>=20
> > > > From: Jeffrey Pyne [<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:jpyne@worldatwork.org">mailto:jpyne@worldatwork.org</A>]=20
<BR>> > > > > Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 10:03 =
AM=20
<BR>> > > > > To: =
plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us=20
<BR>> > > > > Subject: Interesting MS Comments =
<BR>> >=20
> > > <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > > > =
> I=20
saw a link to this article on another list and found it amusing: =
<BR>>=20
> > > > <BR>> > > > > <A=20
=
href=3D"http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=3Dmarketsquote99_news.ht&a=
mp;">http://quote.bloomberg.com/fgcgi.cgi?T=3Dmarketsquote99_news.ht&=
</A>=20
<BR>> > > > > s=3DAOospdBaQTWl <BR>> > > =
> >=20
jcm9z <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > > > > (If =
it=20
hasn't already been posted to Slashdot, I'm sure it will <BR>> =
> >=20
> > soon.) <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > > =
> > A=20
couple excerpts: <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > > =
> >=20
"Microsoft Corp.'s Windows operating-system chief, Jim <BR>> > =
>=20
> > Allchin, says that <BR>> > > > > freely =
distributed=20
software code such as rival Linux could <BR>> > > > > =
stifle=20
innovation <BR>> > > > > and that legislators need to =
understand the threat." <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > =
> >=20
> -and- <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > =
> >=20
> "I'm an American, I believe in the American Way," he said. "I =
<BR>>=20
> > > > worry if the <BR>> > > > > =
government=20
encourages open source, and I don't think we've done <BR>> > =
> >=20
> enough education of policy makers to understand the threat." =
<BR>>=20
> > > > <BR>> > > > > Well heck =
afire! I=20
didn't realize that Linux was UNAMERICAN. I <BR>> > > =
>=20
> am unsubscribing from this list immediately, and when I get =
home I=20
<BR>> > > > > am going to <BR>> > > > =
> blow=20
away my Slackware 7.1 installation (evil, evil!) and <BR>> > =
> >=20
> install Windows <BR>> > > > > 2000. (To do =
so I'll=20
just need to stop by Fry's on the way <BR>> > > > > =
home to=20
pick up <BR>> > > > > and extra 256Mb of RAM-- good =
thing=20
it's on sale for $44.95.) <BR>> > > > > I'm =
just glad=20
<BR>> > > > > Mr. Allchin warned us all before it was =
too=20
late.... <BR>> > > > > <BR>> > > > > =
:)=20
<BR>> > > > > <BR>> > > > > ~Jeff =
<BR>>=20
> > > > <BR>> > > > >=20
________________________________________________ <BR>> > > =
>=20
> See <A=20
=
href=3D"http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoen=
ix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</A>=20
if your <BR>> > > > > mail doesn't post to the list =
quickly=20
and you use Netscape to <BR>> > > > > write mail. =
<BR>>=20
> > > > <BR>> > > > > Plug-discuss =
mailing=20
list - <BR>> > > > >=20
Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us <BR>> > > > > =
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">ht=
tp://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</A>=20
<BR>> > > > <BR>> > > >=20
________________________________________________ <BR>> > > =
> See=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoen=
ix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</A>=20
if your mail <BR>> > > <BR>> > > doesn't post to =
the list=20
quickly and you use Netscape to write mail. <BR>> > > =
<BR>> >=20
> > Plug-discuss mailing list - =20
Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us <BR>> > > > <A=20
=
href=3D"http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">ht=
tp://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</A>=20
<BR>> > > <BR>> > > -- <BR>> > > Deepak =
Saxena -=20
deepak@csociety.purdue.edu - phone://602.790.0500 <BR>> > > =
<BR>> > > call me 'evil' call me 'tide is on your side' =
anything=20
that you want <BR>> > > anybody knows you can conjure =
anything by=20
the dark of the moon <BR>> > > - Tori Amos, =
"Suede"=20
<BR>> > > <BR>> > >=20
________________________________________________ <BR>> > > =
See <A=20
=
href=3D"http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoen=
ix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</A>=20
if your mail <BR>> > > doesn't post to the list quickly and =
you use=20
Netscape to write mail. <BR>> > > <BR>> > > =
Plug-discuss=20
mailing list - Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us =
<BR>>=20
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KQUOTE><PRE>--
*****************
Nakota Software, Inc.
Custom Industrial Software Development</PRE> =
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