Am 28. Dec, 2004 schwätzte Trent Shipley so:
Sorry for the delay in response. My keyboard was surgically removed from
my hands for a few days...
> On Tuesday 2004-12-28 01:44, der.hans wrote:
>
> > > Free:
> > >
> > > Free, as in beer. Gratis.
> > > Free, as in freedom. Libere.
> > > Free, as in freeway. Free infrastructure, contrast with toll road.
> >
> > Not sure what you're implying here. Do you mean "free to use" formats? Or
> > is that part of what you're saying?
> >
> > > Economically, the most important of these is "Free as in freeway".
>
> Free Infrastructure Software (FIS)
> Comodified, Stardardized, Free Infrastructure Software (CSFIS)
>
> ---
>
> I am not focusing exclusively on data formats, though you are correct that the
> emphasis is on gratis, universal usufruct. So the emphasis is *slightly*
> different from simply gratisware, free beer (and who cares if I get the
> source code.)
I do :).
> Economists distinguish between several kinds of "free" beyond liberty.
>
> There is gratis, free as in beer. (Usually an economist assumes some ulterior
> motive on the part of one who provides a good "gratis". Either it is a
> loss-leader or a way to convert economic wealth into political power by
> creating a patron-client relationship.)
>
> There is free as in free-good (or common good). The classic examples are fish
> stocks, free pastures, air, or rain, or sunlight. Note that these "common"
> goods are available with no invested cost and no charge for usufruct. They
> are either regarded as not having owners _per se_ or as owned in common by a
> community (as in, "the village commons").
>
> Then there is free infrastructure. With free infrastructure costs may be
> bourn by individuals (as in an historical easement on ones property,
> amounting to a tax) philanthropists or charitable organizations (as in
> donations of facilities for an orphanage, poorhouse, or museum), or the
> commonwealth (usually in the form of public utilities or services like
> government funded grammar schools or, above all, free government funded roads
> [where "free" means that there is no toll; that is, free usufruct]).
I guess that would encompass my idea of commodityware, the point where
a software tool becomes ubiquitous and has little cost. I generally
term this by functionality, e.g. web browser, text editor, GUI widget
set. There can be sub-fx()s, of course :). For example, tabbed browsing is
becoming commodityware if it hasn't already reached that plateau.
Most Free Software, once it hits a certain level of usage, becomes
commodityware, but it's really about web browser rather than mozilla,
konqueror, elinks, etc.
That functionality becomes infrastructure. The nice thing is that it's
mostly modular infrastructure configurable to individual preferences.
> ----
>
> At the last Plug Development meeting (that I believe you, O Hans, attended)
I was at the one you describe, but not sure that was the last one.
> some of us were talking about the SCO lawsuits and the general agreement that
> it was just SCO making a lame, last effort to avoid bankruptcy and not much
I still think it's SCO and Canopy managements trying to milk it and
essentially bilk investors ( and potentially IBM ) out of money. Whether
or not they colluded and actually defrauded investors they have definitely
succeeded in acquiring millions of dollars from investors via personal
sale of stock. I suppose we have to let the SEC decide if the mgt and
legal teams from SCO and Canopy should be prosecuted.
> would come of it. Then we talked about Microsoft and intellectual property.
> There was general agreement that IP challenges to FOSS from Microsoft should
> be taken seriously.
>
> It was generally agreed that it might be hard to wage a legal battle against a
> concerted MS challenge aimed at gutting GNU/Linux or other critical FOSS
> tools (notable Mozilla or OO.o). Of course, it was then noted that FOSS had
> become indispensable in commodity-level servers in all sorts of sectors, and
> that this dependence was increasing in the commodity-server niche and
> spreading (slowly) to mainframes and desktops.
>
> MUCH more important, however, was GNU/Linux in the small: in data appliances
> and embedded systems. Most instances of Linux are stripped-down, customized
> versions residing in firm-ware running smart toasters. NATO armed forces,
> GE, GM, and above all WalMart are now, or soon will be, completely and
> utterly dependent on open access to Linux at little or no cost. In one sense
> this was regarded as good. If Walmart's POS and JIT inventory have integral
> Linux compontents, and a (relatively) tiny little company like Microsoft
> makes a move to deprive Walmart of continued access to Walmart's critical
> infrastructure at a predictable and affordable price, then Walmart will
> squish Microsoft in court.
>
> Notice, however, that Linux is growing fastest as in embedded systems that
> users are seldom aware of--like smart microwave ovens. Someone has to spend
> resources to create the software--in the jargon of economists Linux is NOT a
> free-good (like sunshine). However, industry can use (most) FOSS at no cost
> and use it as they see fit (including hacking source code). FOSS therefore
> meets an economist's technical definition of "free infrastructure" (no matter
> how one feels about no-toll superhighways.)
>
> Thus, from the standpoint of industry, gratisware is not at issue, though a
> lower the initial price point for anything is desirable. Libertyware is not
> at issue, industry does fine without liberty--just look at the PRC. What is
PRC?
> critical is that some kinds of software (operating systems, office suites)
> have become critical and ubiquitous. It is *VERY* desirable from both
> microeconomic and macroeconomic perspectives that widely deployed, horizontal
> software applications become affordable, commodified, standardized, and (if
> at all possible) become free infrastructure.
>
> At this point we can address Bill Lindley's concern that superhighways are not
> free (either investors or taxpayers have to foot the initial bill), and that
> they produce significant diseconomies ('economic bads', if you will).
> Notably, superhighways adversely effect urban quality of life, degrade air
> quality, and (for better or worse) have positive feedback loops with auto
> manufacture and suburbanization. Moreover, superhighways are not "fair"
> government investments. They effectively subsidize trucking companies, land
> speculators, and wealthy exurbanites.
>
> Lindley says that FOSS should not be compared to superhighways. He explains
> why superhighways are bad, but does not tell us why not to compare FOSS to
> them. Let us infer that the comparison insults FOSS because, unlike
> superhighways, FOSS has no *direct* effect on the environment, involves
> relatively little direct government funding (cough, cough), and many expect
> FOSS to be class friendly by lowering the cost of computing so much that it
> will blur or erase any digital divide.
I agree that the superhighway metaphor doesn't quite fit. Neither does
comparing FOSS to water ( well, maybe, if you've read Cat-a-lyst from Alan
Dean Foster ).
We need something that is:
* freely available to all people/organizations
* has no limit on how much raw material ( such as copies of Free Software in its current state ) is available
* probably has a maintainance cost
* is customizable, but might have an associated cost for customization
* can be given away, even with customization
* generally doesn't have adverse environmental issues to be considered
* might be considered a basic building block for societal advancement
* can easily be created by most anyone
* can't be taken away
* can be translated :)
Maybe Free Speech:
* everyone in the .us has it[1]
* there's no limit on raw materials, e.g. words don't wear out
* use the language or lose it, so there's some maintenance cost
* create new words or strange grammar, but they might not be understood
* easy to give away as pure words or as quotes
* mostly no environmental issues, but there are extreme cases such as
yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater
* need to communicate in order to improve society
* easy to create new words or quotes
* once the language is learned, it can continue to be used
* Redefreiheit :)
Wasn't trying to be obnoxious with that, but Free Speech was really the
only idea I couldn't immediately knock down :). Well, OK I was being a
little obnoxious with the last point in the bullet list ;-).
> My understanding of the term "superhighway", however, does not include just
> freeways (like Interstate-10) but also toll roads and turnpikes (like the New
Maybe it should just be 'language' rather than 'Free Speech'.
> Jersey Turnpike). The reader will note that I am ONLY likening freeways to
> FOSS because both belong to a formal economic category: free infrastructure.
>
> Beyond that, the reader will note that the PLUG Development discussion
> expected the big winners from the growth of FOSS available as commodified,
> standardized, free infrastructure were not the digitally disenfranchised, but
> huge established companies like GE, GM, and Walmart. Perhaps, freeways and
Hmm. I hope my point was not that the huge companies will be *the* big
winners, rather that they are making great gains due to FOSS and that
their economic reliance on FOSS will pit them to defend FOSS against
things like patent claims. I think the big winners will be all who benefit
from FOSS, which, in the end, will be everyone :). Yes, Virginia, even the
proprietary software vendors, even if they won't admit it :).
> Linux will be more alike than we thought. Since no good deed goes
> unpunished, Linus Torvalds will get his unjust desserts.
Mmmm...cheesecake.
ciao,
der.hans
[1] theoretically, if one ignores those who are in a public institution
like prison, gov't job or grade school.
--
# https://www.LuftHans.com/ http://www.AZOTO.org/
# Motorraeder toeten nicht. Motorraeder werden getoetet.
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