Questions : switching back to Linux for my desktop

[techlists at phpcoderusa.com]

Hi everyone!  Thank you so much for all of this feedback.  Yikes all 
this cross talk is making me feel puny... I had gotten to a point where 
I thought I knew a few things... Yikes!!

So my saga continues.  I fired up an old laptop and to my surprise it 
was running Kubuntu 20.04.  I must have started down this path a while 
ago. Kubuntu is very impressive right out of the box.

I ran Linux for my desktop for 8 months in 2000. Then for maybe 2 years 
from 2014 to 2016.  I returned to Windows for business reasons.  Both 
times I enjoyed Linux for my workstation. Over the years I have spent a 
fair amount of time on LAMP servers. I'm not a sys admin, I am a PHP 
dev.

Even though I have spent a lot of time using Linux I have big gaps in my 
knowledge and skills.

I am pleasantly surprised by Kubuntu.

Brian had mentioned backing up my home drive which got me to thinking 
about how the home drive is used.

This morning I discovered the following directories in my home 
directory.

Desktop
Documents
Downloads
Music
Pictures
Public
Templates
Videos

This implies that the apps that come with Kubuntu are per-configured to 
use these directories.  For example FixFox will automatically download 
to Downloads.  Very impressive.

I think Kubuntu is a keeper.

My Win box may have died altogether. It got to the point where it would 
not shutdown so I would have to power it off.  This morning it will not 
boot.  I think Win has gotten corrupted.  It served me well for 6 years 
and now it is time to move on.

The good news is I did a backup 2 days ago.  And I have this laptop 
operational. Lots to do....

Thank each and everyone of you for your feedback!!  I've been on this 
list since 1999 or 2000 and if it were not for this list I probably 
would not have gotten to this point.

I'm sure I will have tons of questions over the next few days... 
weeks... and months. I'd like to fill in my knowledge voids and learn 
how to run this thing like a pro.

Thanks,
Keith





On 2022-10-25 06:30, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> I don't really have the time to reply to all of this, but I did want
> to reply to a couple of things.
> 
>> Let them go back to windows. Not everybody belongs in the Linux
>> world.
> 
> This. This right here is why you shouldn't be giving advice to
> newbies. This is the wrong attitude to have if you want to new people
> involved with Linux. New people are a good thing, they have new ideas
> and new directions that they want to go, and will take things to
> places never thought before. To push them out will create a dying
> community.
> 
> Just take a look at Amateur Radio if you want an example of what this
> creates. It's hard to get young people interested because of the
> stigma of it being a hobby of old grumpy men that don't want to do
> anything but get signal reports on their SSB HF radios, using the same
> tech that existed 100 years ago.
> 
> For new people, easier is better, hence GNOME or KDE being a good
> recommendation. Once they get their footing then they can go and try
> more esoteric things as they get comfortable. Having them try to use
> straight openbox with a custom configuration is NOT the right advice
> for a new person.
> 
> Lastly, yes I did mean "integrated" and not "dependent" or
> "entangled". GNOME 3/4 in no way, shape, or form, REQUIRES systemd.
> You don't have to look far to prove this as it runs on FreeBSD, which
> is systemd-free. And no you don't have to jump through hoops to get it
> working, you install it and enable a couple services and poof it works
> just as well as on any other Linux system. GNOME also a first-class
> desktop environment on Void.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, at 11:25 PM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> 
>> Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 24 Oct 2022 08:58:12 -0700
>> 
>>> Choice of desktop environments is always going to be subjective...
>> for
>> 
>>> instance I think that people that use i3, DWM, and other minimal
>> 
>>> window managers are masochists;
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
>> 
>>> there's just no way I could justify
>> 
>>> spending the time learning and setting up those desktop
>> environments;
>> 
>> Why not? Learn them once, adapt them to your exact workflow, and use
>> 
>> them for years. They change only to make changes almost unanimously
>> 
>> considered improvements, so your learning time is an investment well
>> 
>> spent. I've used Openbox for eight years, and spent little time
>> 
>> learning it after the first month.
>> 
>>> I just want to use my computer.
>> 
>> So do we all. Unfortunately, we all have to keep learning, one way
>> or
>> 
>> another. Just ask users of the abandoned Unity. Or those left behind
>> 
>> who refused to jump off the cliff when Gnome2 (which I used
>> 
>> enthusiastically) became the comparatively inscrutable Gnome3. This
>> 
>> move was so unpopular it spawned the popular MATE Desktop as a
>> Gnome2rved me will for





On 2022-10-25 06:30, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> I don't really have the time to reply to all of this, but I did want
> to reply to a couple of things.
> 
>> Let them go back to windows. Not everybody belongs in the Linux
>> world.
> 
> This. This right here is why you shouldn't be giving advice to
> newbies. This is the wrong attitude to have if you want to new people
> involved with Linux. New people are a good thing, they have new ideas
> and new directions that they want to go, and will take things to
> places never thought before. To push them out will create a dying
> community.
> 
> Just take a look at Amateur Radio if you want an example of what this
> creates. It's hard to get young people interested because of the
> stigma of it being a hobby of old grumpy men that don't want to do
> anything but get signal reports on their SSB HF radios, using the same
> tech that existed 100 years ago.
> 
> For new people, easier is better, hence GNOME or KDE being a good
> recommendation. Once they get their footing then they can go and try
> more esoteric things as they get comfortable. Having them try to use
> straight openbox with a custom configuration is NOT the right advice
> for a new person.
> 
> Lastly, yes I did mean "integrated" and not "dependent" or
> "entangled". GNOME 3/4 in no way, shape, or form, REQUIRES systemd.
> You don't have to look far to prove this as it runs on FreeBSD, which
> is systemd-free. And no you don't have to jump through hoops to get it
> working, you install it and enable a couple services and poof it works
> just as well as on any other Linux system. GNOME also a first-class
> desktop environment on Void.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, at 11:25 PM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> 
>> Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 24 Oct 2022 08:58:12 -0700
>> 
>>> Choice of desktop environments is always going to be subjective...
>> for
>> 
>>> instance I think that people that use i3, DWM, and other minimal
>> 
>>> window managers are masochists;
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
>> 
>>> there's just no way I could justify
>> 
>>> spending the time learning and setting up those desktop
>> environments;
>> 
>> Why not? Learn them once, adapt them to your exact workflow, and use
>> 
>> them for years. They change only to make changes almost unanimously
>> 
>> considered improvements, so your learning time is an investment well
>> 
>> spent. I've used Openbox for eight years, and spent little time
>> 
>> learning it after the first month.
>> 
>>> I just want to use my computer.
>> 
>> So do we all. Unfortunately, we all have to keep learning, one way
>> or
>> 
>> another. Just ask users of the abandoned Unity. Or those left behind
>> 
>> who refused to jump off the cliff when Gnome2 (which I used
>> 
>> enthusiastically) became the comparatively inscrutable Gnome3. This
>> 
>> move was so unpopular it spawned the popular MATE Desktop as a
>> Gnome2ring it will not start.

On 2022-10-25 06:30, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> I don't really have the time to reply to all of this, but I did want
> to reply to a couple of things.
> 
>> Let them go back to windows. Not everybody belongs in the Linux
>> world.
> 
> This. This right here is why you shouldn't be giving advice to
> newbies. This is the wrong attitude to have if you want to new people
> involved with Linux. New people are a good thing, they have new ideas
> and new directions that they want to go, and will take things to
> places never thought before. To push them out will create a dying
> community.
> 
> Just take a look at Amateur Radio if you want an example of what this
> creates. It's hard to get young people interested because of the
> stigma of it being a hobby of old grumpy men that don't want to do
> anything but get signal reports on their SSB HF radios, using the same
> tech that existed 100 years ago.
> 
> For new people, easier is better, hence GNOME or KDE being a good
> recommendation. Once they get their footing then they can go and try
> more esoteric things as they get comfortable. Having them try to use
> straight openbox with a custom configuration is NOT the right advice
> for a new person.
> 
> Lastly, yes I did mean "integrated" and not "dependent" or
> "entangled". GNOME 3/4 in no way, shape, or form, REQUIRES systemd.
> You don't have to look far to prove this as it runs on FreeBSD, which
> is systemd-free. And no you don't have to jump through hoops to get it
> working, you install it and enable a couple services and poof it works
> just as well as on any other Linux system. GNOME also a first-class
> desktop environment on Void.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, at 11:25 PM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> 
>> Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 24 Oct 2022 08:58:12 -0700
>> 
>>> Choice of desktop environments is always going to be subjective...
>> for
>> 
>>> instance I think that people that use i3, DWM, and other minimal
>> 
>>> window managers are masochists;
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
>> 
>>> there's just no way I could justify
>> 
>>> spending the time learning and setting up those desktop
>> environments;
>> 
>> Why not? Learn them once, adapt them to your exact workflow, and use
>> 
>> them for years. They change only to make changes almost unanimously
>> 
>> considered improvements, so your learning time is an investment well
>> 
>> spent. I've used Openbox for eight years, and spent little time
>> 
>> learning it after the first month.
>> 
>>> I just want to use my computer.
>> 
>> So do we all. Unfortunately, we all have to keep learning, one way
>> or
>> 
>> another. Just ask users of the abandoned Unity. Or those left behind
>> 
>> who refused to jump off the cliff when Gnome2 (which I used
>> 
>> enthusiastically) became the comparatively inscrutable Gnome3. This
>> 
>> move was so unpopular it spawned the popular MATE Desktop as a
>> Gnome2gether.




On 2022-10-25 06:30, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> I don't really have the time to reply to all of this, but I did want
> to reply to a couple of things.
> 
>> Let them go back to windows. Not everybody belongs in the Linux
>> world.
> 
> This. This right here is why you shouldn't be giving advice to
> newbies. This is the wrong attitude to have if you want to new people
> involved with Linux. New people are a good thing, they have new ideas
> and new directions that they want to go, and will take things to
> places never thought before. To push them out will create a dying
> community.
> 
> Just take a look at Amateur Radio if you want an example of what this
> creates. It's hard to get young people interested because of the
> stigma of it being a hobby of old grumpy men that don't want to do
> anything but get signal reports on their SSB HF radios, using the same
> tech that existed 100 years ago.
> 
> For new people, easier is better, hence GNOME or KDE being a good
> recommendation. Once they get their footing then they can go and try
> more esoteric things as they get comfortable. Having them try to use
> straight openbox with a custom configuration is NOT the right advice
> for a new person.
> 
> Lastly, yes I did mean "integrated" and not "dependent" or
> "entangled". GNOME 3/4 in no way, shape, or form, REQUIRES systemd.
> You don't have to look far to prove this as it runs on FreeBSD, which
> is systemd-free. And no you don't have to jump through hoops to get it
> working, you install it and enable a couple services and poof it works
> just as well as on any other Linux system. GNOME also a first-class
> desktop environment on Void.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, at 11:25 PM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> 
>> Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 24 Oct 2022 08:58:12 -0700
>> 
>>> Choice of desktop environments is always going to be subjective...
>> for
>> 
>>> instance I think that people that use i3, DWM, and other minimal
>> 
>>> window managers are masochists;
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
>> 
>>> there's just no way I could justify
>> 
>>> spending the time learning and setting up those desktop
>> environments;
>> 
>> Why not? Learn them once, adapt them to your exact workflow, and use
>> 
>> them for years. They change only to make changes almost unanimously
>> 
>> considered improvements, so your learning time is an investment well
>> 
>> spent. I've used Openbox for eight years, and spent little time
>> 
>> learning it after the first month.
>> 
>>> I just want to use my computer.
>> 
>> So do we all. Unfortunately, we all have to keep learning, one way
>> or
>> 
>> another. Just ask users of the abandoned Unity. Or those left behind
>> 
>> who refused to jump off the cliff when Gnome2 (which I used
>> 
>> enthusiastically) became the comparatively inscrutable Gnome3. This
>> 
>> move was so unpopular it spawned the popular MATE Desktop as a
>> Gnome2esive!!





On 2022-10-25 06:30, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> I don't really have the time to reply to all of this, but I did want
> to reply to a couple of things.
> 
>> Let them go back to windows. Not everybody belongs in the Linux
>> world.
> 
> This. This right here is why you shouldn't be giving advice to
> newbies. This is the wrong attitude to have if you want to new people
> involved with Linux. New people are a good thing, they have new ideas
> and new directions that they want to go, and will take things to
> places never thought before. To push them out will create a dying
> community.
> 
> Just take a look at Amateur Radio if you want an example of what this
> creates. It's hard to get young people interested because of the
> stigma of it being a hobby of old grumpy men that don't want to do
> anything but get signal reports on their SSB HF radios, using the same
> tech that existed 100 years ago.
> 
> For new people, easier is better, hence GNOME or KDE being a good
> recommendation. Once they get their footing then they can go and try
> more esoteric things as they get comfortable. Having them try to use
> straight openbox with a custom configuration is NOT the right advice
> for a new person.
> 
> Lastly, yes I did mean "integrated" and not "dependent" or
> "entangled". GNOME 3/4 in no way, shape, or form, REQUIRES systemd.
> You don't have to look far to prove this as it runs on FreeBSD, which
> is systemd-free. And no you don't have to jump through hoops to get it
> working, you install it and enable a couple services and poof it works
> just as well as on any other Linux system. GNOME also a first-class
> desktop environment on Void.
> 
> On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, at 11:25 PM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> 
>> Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 24 Oct 2022 08:58:12 -0700
>> 
>>> Choice of desktop environments is always going to be subjective...
>> for
>> 
>>> instance I think that people that use i3, DWM, and other minimal
>> 
>>> window managers are masochists;
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
>> 
>>> there's just no way I could justify
>> 
>>> spending the time learning and setting up those desktop
>> environments;
>> 
>> Why not? Learn them once, adapt them to your exact workflow, and use
>> 
>> them for years. They change only to make changes almost unanimously
>> 
>> considered improvements, so your learning time is an investment well
>> 
>> spent. I've used Openbox for eight years, and spent little time
>> 
>> learning it after the first month.
>> 
>>> I just want to use my computer.
>> 
>> So do we all. Unfortunately, we all have to keep learning, one way
>> or
>> 
>> another. Just ask users of the abandoned Unity. Or those left behind
>> 
>> who refused to jump off the cliff when Gnome2 (which I used
>> 
>> enthusiastically) became the comparatively inscrutable Gnome3. This
>> 
>> move was so unpopular it spawned the popular MATE Desktop as a
>> Gnome2
>> 
>> continuation. Just over 10 years ago the forced conversion from
>> Kmail to
>> 
>> the Nepomuk and Akonadi encumbered Kmail 2 sent users flying to
>> other
>> 
>> email clients. I hear of hardly anybody using kmail on a regular
>> basis.
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> Telling newbies to avoid GNOME/KDE because they're "slow" and
>> pushing
>> 
>>> them off into, IMO, inferior desktop environments is just going to
>> 
>>> make them go back to Windows.
>> 
>> Let them go back to windows. Not everybody belongs in the Linux
>> world.
>> 
>> Far too much of Linux' choice and DIYability has been sacrificed on
>> the
>> 
>> alter of "Grandma", "the Newbie", and "Windows users". Gnome now
>> 
>> depends on what init system you use. What could *possibly* go wrong?
>> 
>> Also, Gnome/KDE being slow is a minor problem. The big problem is
>> that
>> 
>> they're massively entangled and hostile to anything outside their
>> 
>> world, and this entanglement produces bugware.
>> 
>>> GNOME for instance may have been "slow"
>> 
>>> 11 years ago with GNOME 3 was original released, but it's been
>> 
>>> optimized since and runs fine on even 10 year old hardware.
>> 
>> As long as you agree to install the massively entangled systemd.
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> It's the same when you tell a newbie to avoid standard distros such
>> as
>> 
>>> Debian/Ubuntu and instead go to ones like Devuan or Void because
>> they
>> 
>>> don't use systemd;
>> 
>> Name me one newbie disadvantage of Devuan compared to Debian. As far
>> as
>> 
>> Void, yeah, only the intelligent newbie who wants real control over
>> his
>> 
>> computer should be advised to go to Void.
>> 
>>> you're doing a disservice to them and the
>> 
>>> community. Systemd distros that use KDE and especially GNOME are
>> well
>> 
>>> integrated and things tend to just work without tweaking.
>> 
>> s/integrated/entangled
>> 
>> As far as just working without tweaking, so does Devuan. And I
>> 
>> think, but am not sure, that when you install Void you pick the CD
>> for
>> 
>> the source instead of the Internet, you also get a "just works"
>> 
>> situation.
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> P.S. When I say "inferior", what I'm really trying to convey is
>> that
>> 
>>> they're less polished,
>> 
>> It's a computer, not a 1957 Chevy.
>> 
>>> less integrated,
>> 
>> Less entangled and therefore more modular and easier to modify to
>> suit
>> 
>> one's needs.
>> 
>>> have a smaller group of
>> 
>>> developers,
>> 
>> Which is a good thing, because the last decade and a half shows us
>> an
>> 
>> excess of developers, especially the kind whose salaries are paid by
>> 
>> the likes of Redhat, lead to first mission creep and then mission
>> kudzu.
>> 
>> and generally move slower.
>> 
>> Which is a good thing. You yourself said you just want to use your
>> 
>> computer, rather than continuously learning how to deal with its
>> 
>> changes.
>> 
>>> You're going to spend more time
>> 
>>> trying to figure out how to tweak things because the communities
>> are
>> 
>>> smaller.
>> 
>> The preceding is true, but I've found in most cases those
>> communities
>> 
>> are big enough to help you solve your problems.
>> 
>>> That and you're going to be relegated to using worse
>> 
>>> interfaces for things like bluetooth, wifi, and ethernet, because
>> you
>> 
>>> have to use utilities like wicd or network-manager-applet instead
>> of
>> 
>>> the wonderful interfaces built into GNOME or KDE.
>> 
>> I can't speak to the wonderful interfaces of Gnome or KDE, but did
>> you
>> 
>> know that the Devuan project now has a replacement for wicd and
>> 
>> network-manager? Developed by DeVuan, not DeBian.
>> 
>> I'm all for progress, but never at the expense of complexity and
>> 
>> monolithic entanglement.
>> 
>> SteveT
>> 
>> Steve Litt
>> 
>> Summer 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
>> 
>> http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
>> 
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