Why is PHP not a "real" language?

Sun Aug 28 16:52:41 MST 2022

On 2022-08-28 16:51, techlists at phpcoderusa.com wrote:
> Main PLUG discussion list <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org>
> 
> I started this thread because I do not see any problems with PHP.  I
> think the community is trying to fix something that is not broke.
> Yikes I probably just pissed-off a few people.  I'm not here to fight,
> I am here to learn.
> 
> I think what is broke is the community.  The only thing that I think
> is missing is a compiler or some sort of machine code
> generator/interpreter like Java.
> 
> Please educate me.
> 
> <scroll>
> 
> On 2022-08-28 01:09, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>> My opinion might not count for much since I don’t really program
>> with PHP, although I spent about a year with V4 in 2000. I do enjoy
>> looking at the language updates and seeing what small steps the PHP
>> language Gods take each time it’s updated. In contrast to C++, PHP
>> seems to be evolving at a snail’s pace.
> 
> Interesting.  Not sure what needs to change.  Any thoughts?
> 
>> 
>> The issues about interpreted (aka, “scripting”) languages is
>> bogus. Python is now the #1 most popular programming language in the
>> world, and it’s interpreted. So there goes that theory.
>> 
>> https://skilldeck.org/learning/best-programming-language-to-learn [2]
>> 
>> My take on PHP is that it has been in a stuck-in-the-middle state for
>>> 20 years, between being a “structured/procedural programming” and
>> “object-oriented” language. Kind of like C++ was before V1.1 or so
>> was introduced.
> 
> I seem to recall about 5 years ago there was some debate going on
> between the those who thought we should turn to procedural programming
> and those who thought OOP was the only way.
> 
> I can see the need for both in PHP.  PHP is often embedded in HTML and
> i am thinking it needs to be procedural.  There other times PHP is
> used to create an app and OOP is probably the best approach.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Still, while you can use both to create OO code, you can also use both
>> to write horrid code that runs just fine and doesn’t use any of the
>> class-related language constructs.
> 
> Isn't that a hiring manager and team manager's issue not the language.
>  In 1988 I did a short internship at the city of Tucson.  It was all
> spaghetti code.  Was that COBOL's fault or a lack of leadership.  I
> think it was a short coming in management.
> 
> It was a horrid experience.
> 
>> 
>> Over the years, C++ has been embraced by the OOP community and you
>> don’t see anybody demanding that C++ compilers be able to compile
>> any old C code. The C standard is still evolving and it keeps taking
>> on bits and pieces of things inspired by C++, but it’s really still
>> not an OOP language.
> 
> What you said is disturbing.  C and C++ ae two different languages.
> It is my understanding C is not object oriented while C++ is.  If
> someone does not like C then move to C++ do not cross pollinate.
> 
>> 
>> But I’ve heard PHP coders constantly complaining about the fact that
>> the use of classes in PHP kills performance. Yeah, as if Python users
>> think that’s even relevant! Python is 100% OOP right out of the
>> gate, and they seem proud of it. Both are interpreted, and both are
>> probably about as efficient compared with a compiled language. (Are
>> there any performance comparisons between equivalent PHP and Python
>> apps?)
> 
> Interesting.  The minimalists continue to complain.  Yikes!! I'm a
> minimalist and also recognize server assets are cheap.  So why worry
> so much?
> 
> I have a friend that refuses to use WordPress because it is bloatware.
>  Yikes!!  It really comes down to a business decision.
> 
> I spoke with a guy who was running two steel mills using a PHP web app
> that ran on shared hosting.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> If an OOP-based interpreted language can attain the "#1 most popular
>> language” slot and nobody cares about the little bit of overhead
>> that the OO part imposes on the execution time, then perhaps it’s
>> time for PHP coders to suck-it-up and learn how to REALLY code in OOP
>> idioms!
> 
> Please expand on OOP idioms.
> 
> 
> 
>> Until then, it’s the PHP programming community that’s
>> shooting itself in the feet, not the language. Get rid of the
>> “holes” in the language that allow it to process old code that
>> breaks all of the encapsulation rules and make the use of classes more
>> direct rather than forcing the use of squirrly syntax that is
>> constantly reminding people “this isn’t really an object-oriented
>> language … but you can use it that way … IF YOU INSIST”.
>> 
> 
> I'd like to understand more, please expand on this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> This is 2022. Nobody teaches plain old structured/procedural
>> programming any more — they don’t even say they’re teaching OOP,
>> it’s just what all modern languages support today. Except PHP, which
>> cannot seem to decide if it’s ever going to grow up and let go of
>> its procedural roots.
>> 
>> (Perhaps a big part of the problem is all of the old procedural PHP
>> code that people are scared to refactor. So instead they just start
>> over in Python?)
> 
> Is that true?  Do you think Python is the language that will topple 
> PHP?
> 
> 
>> 
>> -David Schwartz
>> 
>>> On Aug 27, 2022, at 7:11 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss
>>> <plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just in time to add another thread that might be as intense as the
>>> sysd...etc thread.
>>> 
>>> For years I have heard that people say PHP is not a real language.
>>> 
>>> One guy says interpreted languages are not real programming
>>> languages, they are scripting languages.  I guess way back when I
>>> was an xBase developer I must have not been a real programmer.  Back
>>> in the day The only compiled xBase was Clipper Summer 87 by
>>> Nantucket Corp.  I think it was possible to compile xBase code but I
>>> never did except with Clipper Summer 87.  I think Visual Fox was
>>> compiled...
>>> 
>>> Another says the barrier to entry makes it possible for
>>> non-professional programmers to get hired and to mess up the code
>>> base.  Isn't that a hiring manager's issue?
>>> 
>>> I think PHP is a great language and a lot of others must think so
>>> too.
>>> 
>>> I really liked the decade long ride with PHP 5. I think 7 brought
>>> some good changes in the area of speed and the removal of Register
>>> globals.
>>> 
>>> PHP must be doing something right because it is run by upwards of
>>> 80% of the websites on the Internet.
>>> 
>>> I do think the PHP team is moving too fast.  We now have version 8.
>>> 
>>> So what is wrong with PHP and where are we going in such a hurry?
>>> 
>>> And finally why does PHP have to be anything but simple stupid?
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>> 
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