DSL bonding

Thu Aug 20 14:28:57 MST 2020

Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The new High
speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now are pretty dang
phenomenal and could lead to a decent wireless/wired hybrid internet
service.

On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss <
plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:

> I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I would probably
> go about forming some sort of local isp of sorts if enough folks around to
> be worth it.  It's not exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies
> can figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and who pays for it,
> ideally more than just you.
>
> Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with DS3's to
> their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which really meant we
> installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a third of it.  These were
> maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to get fiber to their
> crib alone might be $30-50k.  One customer in the middle of a lake
> community was more to build into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or more
> contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay it up front.
>
> Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did construction, so
> I sat down with someone and we looked at getting fiber to my house for some
> baller service myself, ideally with some employee discount...  They
> estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including
> construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service,
> and mine wasn't terribly complex.  I considered reselling to neighbors, but
> back then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to
> general consumers in 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay
> that well.
>
> Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your house,
> but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell that to your neighbors for some
> premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all
> luddites.  Some rural communities are doing this, when AT&T and others
> aren't shutting them down.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss <
> plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>
>> I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
>> plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>
>>> AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told me that the
>>> cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the
>>> modem talks to.   He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not
>>> available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my
>>> neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 miles up the road
>>> from me in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other direction is
>>> a subdivision that has it.  The fiber runs next to the highway less than a
>>> hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see what other options if
>>> any are available.
>>> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote:
>>>
>>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really
>>> guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more
>>> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional
>>> copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on
>>> the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  Probably something in the
>>> telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is.
>>> Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can
>>> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why
>>> you're stuck at 12mbps.
>>>
>>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither
>>> will happen likely.
>>>
>>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL itself
>>> is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical
>>> channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, and
>>> telcos wanted to support it.  Someone would need to make the modem too.
>>> Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or slices or
>>> spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32
>>> channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a
>>> port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit
>>> ethernet.
>>>
>>> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been
>>> imho.  Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the
>>> owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from
>>> the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13
>>> channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First I looked at it, and was
>>> confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked
>>> to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the original @home
>>> cable isp company then supporting AT&T cable modems!  The images were even
>>> snowy, the service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't)
>>> improve.  When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me, so I had to
>>> get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet
>>> alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T.
>>>
>>> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't figure out
>>> even coax.  My experience supporting their customers for Cable Modem data
>>> in '99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant
>>> to your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke despite our rolling
>>> their techs to fix it.  Then they'd get angry at us for doing so and tell
>>> us to stop rolling so many trucks to fix things.
>>>
>>> Sigh.
>>>
>>> Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox actually had
>>> their shit (relatively) together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but
>>> exactly what I'd expect of AT&T.  Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the
>>> media cartels now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll
>>> never, ever, get better either.  Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer
>>> rights weren't really needed after all!
>>>
>>> -mb
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
>>> plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 150 Mbps, you're lucky.  Here AT&T has to bond  2 pairs so I can get 25
>>>> Mbps.    At least it's not comcast.  I wonder how many pairs they could
>>>> bond.  Is there a technical limit or is it just a matter of how many they
>>>> want to bond?  As more people abandon landlines, that leaves more capacity
>>>> for AT&T to bond multiple pairs for internet customers.
>>>> On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>
>>>> So I went through this moving from Cox to CenturyLink, and pretty much
>>>> as described, fairly painless.
>>>>
>>>> <tldr>
>>>>
>>>> I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new service a few years
>>>> ago, and we first hit the outside where CL ran their cabling in.  It was an
>>>> ancient telephony distribution from the 90's, and I've never had a
>>>> land-line in my house since owning it in 2002.  My house built in 95 at
>>>> least used cat5 or like, so I have 4 pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need
>>>> was just fine for bonded DSL  He ripped out the old block, removing the
>>>> house cabling but the one, and isolated the particular line we needed to my
>>>> office where the modem lives, added an approved jack, done.  Bonded dsl is
>>>> 2x 2-wire channels, and they essentially load-balance 75+75mbps channels.
>>>> I have tested this to n-by gigabit upstreams.
>>>>
>>>> Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so telcos built on this
>>>> 100 years ago are a bit assed-out on passable high-frequency modulation
>>>> schemas in use for data and other things to move beyond where they're at.
>>>> DSL makes up for this, particularly when double up on wires it gets better,
>>>> but still unshielded and prone to breakdown.  Problem is mostly it isn't
>>>> shielded, thus capable of very high frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS,
>>>> so it will never go much further than it has today whereas Cable scales to
>>>> gigabits with channelization and QAM modulation at 32bit rates.
>>>>
>>>> VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per channel, and 2x of these get
>>>> you to around CL's bonded DSL limits.  This also includes your distance
>>>> limitations to your local DSLAM, or regional router that terminates your
>>>> data that degrades this eventually further you are from it, so it's a bit
>>>> tricky.  It's been stuck here for years, and pretty much at life end.  This
>>>> is why my cousin living half a mile from me can only get 75mbps from CL and
>>>> I can with bonded @150mbps here.  Old crap network there.
>>>>
>>>> Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you whatever to ~100GbE, but
>>>> depends on how your provider does low-rate Passive Optical Networking (PON)
>>>> today for residential fiber.  Not quite the same as a business data
>>>> network, but any fiber is better than copper networks.
>>>>
>>>> Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is fiber vs. copper in new
>>>> builds.  I like my 25yr old house still, so no fiber for me ever.  Unless I
>>>> street cut my block for fiber myself, which I've considered, just need to
>>>> get my neighbors to buy into me as their new gigabit isp.  ;)
>>>>
>>>> -mb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
>>>> plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Ok.  I won't complain if I have to go out and buy a 4 conductor phone
>>>>> cord.
>>>>> On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding of this is that they will activate the second pair
>>>>> that is commonly used in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This will allow 2
>>>>> lines active to the device.
>>>>>
>>>>> Changes inside might need to happen if your residence does not have 4
>>>>> wire (2 line) compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1 pair)
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss <
>>>>> plug-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL service.  I've signed up for an
>>>>>> upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I finally got someone there who would
>>>>>> tell
>>>>>> me why a technician visit is required for the upgrade. They're
>>>>>> bonding 2
>>>>>> pairs to supply the faster speed here.  I've read up online about DSL
>>>>>> bonding.  I understand that one pair will carry some of the data, and
>>>>>> the other pair will carry some.  But one thing I didn't find out was
>>>>>> whether or not anything will change between the wall jack and the
>>>>>> modem.  Is everything done outside or do they have to come inside?  I
>>>>>> currently have a 2 conductor cord connecting my modem to the wall
>>>>>> jack.
>>>>>> Will that have to be replaced with a 4 conductor cord?  Do they
>>>>>> install
>>>>>> an extra box outside or inside?  I guess all will be answered on the
>>>>>> 18th when the guy is scheduled to be here.   I'm really curious how
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> works.
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
>>>>> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.
>>>>>
>>>>> Stephen
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>
> ---------------------------------------------------
> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss

-- 
A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.

Stephen
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.phxlinux.org/pipermail/plug-discuss/attachments/20200820/72be2458/attachment.html>