More dysfunctional Ubuntu-isms

Wed Nov 9 09:14:48 MST 2016

So I have learned something interesting. My system has a Marvell based
chips etc providing some extra sata3 ports. If I have a SATA device plugged
into that controller I gets some pretty interesting errors on boot
preventing the installer from even loading. In this case my blue ray drive
was connected so I simply unplugged that. This was affecting me on Ubuntu
16.04 and 16.10.

This might be related to your root issue.

On Nov 8, 2016 9:10 PM, "Stephen Partington" <cryptworks at gmail.com> wrote:

> So I am now running Ubuntu 16.10 on my main machine with LVM-cache UEFI
> and my shiny new GTX 1070 with KDE Plasma 5.7.5
>
> So far It is running very well. after i broke my LVM about 4 times trying
> to remember how ti set up LVM cache...
>
> On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 8:17 PM, Brian Cluff <brian at snaptek.com> wrote:
>
>> I just had to kill that on my home machine.  It was making me wait 5
>> minutes even though I actually already had a connection... lame.
>>
>> Brian Cluff
>> On 11/08/2016 09:54 AM, Stephen Partington wrote:
>>
>> I do much the same here. But if you are installing something that does
>> not have an always connected network you might want to adjust the wait
>> timeout for networking sooner than later. 5m boot delays are weird and
>> annoying.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 8:59 AM, Brian Cluff <brian at snaptek.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In my experience the server install is pretty much just a minimal
>>> install that asks you at the end if you want to install certain typical
>>> server software.  I just normally just pick SSH server and then add
>>> whatever I want after the first boot.  I've always had less problems
>>> installing the server over rather than the desktop install because of the
>>> odd graphics card problems that pop up from time to time (but hardly ever
>>> these days) since the server install uses a text based installer.  The
>>> server install will allow you easily install a basic system and then
>>> install the proprietary graphics drivers afterwards skipping having to have
>>> them to install in the first place.
>>>
>>> The only real gotcha is that it takes longer to install since much of
>>> your software (aka your entire desktop environment) will have to be
>>> downloaded over the Internet rather than coming off of nice fast flash
>>> drives or DVDs.  You could, if you are in a hurry, install via the server
>>> install disk and then use the packages on the desktop install to feed your
>>> desktop install, but in the long run it probably won't save you any time
>>> since you would still want to update everything over the Internet and that
>>> would take just about as long.  Then again, if you have the server
>>> installed, you can actually be doing stuff to customize your install at the
>>> same time that it's installing/updating so it's probably all in all a speed
>>> win.
>>>
>>> Brian Cluff
>>> On 11/08/2016 12:49 AM, trent shipley wrote:
>>>
>>> What are some of the gotchas he can expect in installing: server ->
>>> delta desktop repository -> delta desktop gui -> no more than two days
>>> tweaking system? OR:
>>> desktop install -> delta server -> tweak?
>>>
>>> I'd expect using the server distro as the base to work better with a
>>> server enabled workstation, but that's just a layperson's hunch.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 3:35 PM Brian Cluff <brian at snaptek.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Plus one for the server install DVD. If you are going to do anything
>>>> out of the norm, always reach for the server install. Then just apt install
>>>> kubuntu-desktop when everything is done installing.
>>>>
>>>> Kde neon is pretty good right now and about the only way to get an up
>>>> to date kde experience right now, but it will still use the Ubuntu
>>>> installer. It would probably be best for you to use the server install cd,
>>>> then add the neon repositories, and then install the the neon-desktop
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian Cluff
>>>>
>>>> On November 7, 2016 1:17:07 PM MST, Stephen Partington <
>>>> cryptworks at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Wow. you worked much harder with the desktop install media than i would
>>>> have. I usually 86 the desktop install media and just use the server
>>>> install media to get the LVM/Raid settings i want to use. i just have to
>>>> remember to disable the network wait on boot.
>>>>
>>>> I am about to try something like this again for a while as Windows 10
>>>> is irking me again more and more.
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Michael Butash <mike at butash.net>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sorry for the fire and forget, had to rebuild a data center for a
>>>> customer over the weekend - I was just really hoping to have the darn box
>>>> up before I left to work on it remote, such a simple feat normally, but I
>>>> had no time for anyways.
>>>>
>>>> Rest inline...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/03/2016 03:54 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 2 Nov 2016 18:38:24 -0700
>>>> Michael Butash <mike at butash.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This is really why I have a hate/love relation with ubuntu, it never
>>>> fails to disappoint.  My road to 16.04 has been all upgrades so far,
>>>> this time I'm using 16.04.1 cd's from scratch.
>>>>
>>>> Curious: What do you love about it? You seem like the kind of person
>>>> who could work with any distro.
>>>>
>>>> Short answer, it usually works where others do not with my graphics, a
>>>> 6-head amd video card which until recently, I used all ports on.
>>>>
>>>> Long story, probably tldr (you asked!), definitely love/hate...
>>>>
>>>> After my last straw with windoze and making the decision to force
>>>> myself to use linux to both learn and abandon m$ shitty ecosystem circa
>>>> 2006, I tried a bit of everything disto-wise.  I always loathed redhat and
>>>> rpm hell (no, yum didn't entirely fix this, and much later), I came from
>>>> slackware/open|freebsd/solaris background having no desire to go back, and
>>>> oddly landed on Mandrake for a bit.  Until I started hacking on it, and
>>>> things came unglued.
>>>>
>>>> I decided to try Ubuntu after reading about debian roots I've heard
>>>> praised (tried for 2 seconds, got annoyed, don't remember now why), I think
>>>> 6.04 at the time, and oddly it "just worked".
>>>>
>>>> I didn't begin to have any real issues until 10.10 until the era of
>>>> unity hell began, and they started trying to make Ubuntu install more
>>>> idiot-proof for, well idiots.  Sadly it removed all the good features like
>>>> complex raid, crypto, and lvm setup, making it about as stupid as possible,
>>>> but there was always the alt installer and just simply not using unity, if
>>>> I could just get the damn os on a system.  Thanks Canonical.
>>>>
>>>> They then pissed on that, fiddling with (breaking) the alt installer
>>>> removing fdisk (it's what I used for my raid+crypto+lvm setup), and
>>>> ultimately doing away with the alt installer all together as insult to
>>>> injury.  Again I worked around them in other ways, building my fs manually
>>>> with an arch cd first learning how to build it all manually from busybox
>>>> again, and trick the netboot installer into working over it.  Thanks again
>>>> Canonoical.
>>>>
>>>> Around 2014, I got really annoyed after dist-upgrade blew up my system
>>>> that I decide to sojourn a bit and explore distros again with a new laptop
>>>> I'd gotten.  I couldn't even get fedora's vaunted installer to reproduce my
>>>> raid+crypt+lvm setup, and despised the notion of going back to it anyways,
>>>> but at the request of a friend that for some reason likes it, tried.  Even
>>>> tried Red Hat's official installer, more broken than fedora, scratch
>>>> either/or.  Tried Arch too, got to a desktop, and found hell with the AMD
>>>> drivers and graphics capabilities in general.
>>>>
>>>> I settled on Mint Debian edition with Mate, as Cinnamon was all sorts
>>>> of broken with compositing on even the most basic intel gpu, which seemed
>>>> like instant fail.  Mate was great, and used that for a bit until with some
>>>> new ssd's I'd begun to rebuild my desktop with mint de mate, and found ATI
>>>> graphic hell in my desktop.  AMD only cares about fedora/ubuntu as a linux
>>>> entity, knew it would likely work there, and again hacked ubuntu back onto
>>>> my system.  It's the same install I'm using today, and eventually moved my
>>>> laptop back to ubuntu.
>>>>
>>>> What I really can't fathom is how Canonical can keep breaking their
>>>> installers in such new and creative ways each time, and only I seem to
>>>> notice, but then again, I expect linux features most people don't know even
>>>> exist or care about like raid, crypto, or volume management.
>>>>
>>>> If BTRFS or ZFS supported better encryption, I'd love to use one native
>>>> fs to do all the raid/crypto/lvm in it.  I think as of this year,
>>>> either/both might, so worth exploring, but I bet ubuntu's installers will
>>>> still suck in dealing with them.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, AMD is a root evil for linux graphics and at times the kernels,
>>>> but nvidia to this day still has not put out a 6-head video card like AMD
>>>> that I actually use all 6 ports of.  Now I have 3x montiors (well, tv's),
>>>> so this new one has a nice new 1070 card in it.  Which thanks to their
>>>> crappy business practices too of not releasing firmware immediately (that
>>>> amd would decompile), I know nouveau has issues with, and the binary drive
>>>> is necessary.  I'm handy with cli here, not too worried, more that their
>>>> drivers suck too these days.
>>>>
>>>> I really don't want to have to make a circle of distro's to end up
>>>> back here again, but ubuntu is always so basically dysfunctional
>>>> these days with the most basic things, it's hard to want to care.
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how much others have seen this.  This is with legacy boot in
>>>> bios, no uefi crap, and just a basic d-i based ubuntu server install,
>>>> and/or kubuntu.
>>>>
>>>> I used Ubuntu for several years because it "just works." The trouble
>>>> was, as I got more sophisticated, Ubuntu's seatbelts and airbags and
>>>> danger sensing devices and training wheels and all that other stuff so
>>>> necessary to the newbie badly got in my way.
>>>>
>>>> I agree, it feels almost childish to still use Ubuntu at this stage,
>>>> but nothing else has worked suitably, and I'm somewhat tired of
>>>> trying+disappointment when history has proven most others to be inadequate
>>>> or worse.
>>>>
>>>> So I ditched Ubuntu for Debian, and that was great, but then Debian
>>>> went systemd so I switched to Void Linux, and after a rocky 5 weeks of
>>>> Void newbie-ism, Void has turned out to be the most useful, maleable
>>>> and stable distro I've ever used. I've used Void for over a year now.
>>>>
>>>> That's why I tried Mint Debian Edition - figured deb it might suck less
>>>> and just wanted a modern ui, but found that their driver support for AMD,
>>>> or rather a support for modern versions thereof for graphics were fairly
>>>> lacking, and no one from a major org cares enough to fix it.  I simply
>>>> could not get their kernel to take the amd driver, which was a
>>>> non-starter.  It's actually what drove me finally back to Ubuntu natively
>>>> just for a working video solution, and at times keeps me bound.
>>>>
>>>> I think you've probably outgrown Ubuntu.
>>>>
>>>> See above.  It tends to work great as long as I don't have to 1)
>>>> install it via "normal" means or 2) upgrade it, both often suck these
>>>> days.  Both have simply continued to get worse and worse, and I only
>>>> encounter them every few years out of necessity of they are also both my
>>>> primary means of working as my own business.  Once I hit 14.04 stable, I
>>>> upgraded only upon absolute necessity core functions like kernel or desktop
>>>> libs, and only essential apps that require them (browsers really), but
>>>> otherwise didn't upgrade core until 16.04 when it released.  That's been a
>>>> current longer evolutionary story I'll get to eventually.
>>>>
>>>> BUT, as far as your current no-booting installer problem, I wonder if
>>>> your media are bad. Just for fun, boot System Rescue CD and have a look
>>>> around the system to verify no disk or RAM problems, and that the
>>>> processor is what you think it is. If you can't boot System Rescue CD
>>>> either, that points an accusing finger at your DVD drive.
>>>>
>>>> This is something I'd seen before actually, I'd mentioned another time
>>>> about arch and disk-label usage.  I don't think it's media, but who knows.
>>>> My 10 year old spindle of dvd-r's might be breaking down by now, but first
>>>> time I've seen this with a anything, why I tried both the built-in, and a
>>>> usb, of which I've used hundreds of times to boot things, almost always
>>>> said linux boxes over the past 10 years, another not long ago.
>>>>
>>>> Also, try burning your disks with cdrecord (or wodim) instead of a gui.
>>>> I use a command something like this:
>>>>
>>>> cdrecord dev=/dev/sr0 padsize=63s driveropts=burnfree \
>>>> -pad -dao -v -eject myimage.iso
>>>>
>>>> The padsize=63s and -pad help with the Linux readahead bug. Burnfree
>>>> means you don't unknowingly make coasters or bad discs if your computer
>>>> can't deliver the data fast enough.
>>>>
>>>> If you perform the burn like I mentioned above, you *should* be able to
>>>> md5 check the disc to the same md5sum as the iso file by following
>>>> directions here:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/coasterless.htm
>>>>
>>>> Interesting - I've not had to adjust a cd like that using k3b on linux
>>>> ever or nero in win since doing so for pirated drm games. Only time seeing
>>>> something like that is using unetbootin to make the usb where it doesn't
>>>> know the iso expects a certain disk label to exist.  This seemed more a
>>>> sloppy iso build in the few hours I had with the system and ample
>>>> frustration to write that.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for that tidbit, I'll try it after I fiddle with the bios
>>>> more on this.  I'm going to try a kde neon build (really what I'm
>>>> interested in more here), I just didn't have the time as it showed up 5
>>>> hours before I had to pack, sleep, and hop on a plane (sad, I know).  It's
>>>> a t7910 precision dell, more a server board than desktop, so I'd really
>>>> expect better behaviour here on either pc or ubuntu.
>>>>
>>>> I'll update when I get to it tonight hopefully.
>>>>
>>>> HTH,
>>>>
>>>> SteveT
>>>>
>>>> Steve Litt
>>>> November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
>>>> http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
>>>> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.
>>>>
>>>> Stephen
>>>>
>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss
>>>> mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe,
>>>> unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------
>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss
>>> mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe,
>>> unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>
>> --
>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
>> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.
>> Stephen
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss at lists.phxlinux.org
>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>>
>
>
>
> --
> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from
> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button.
>
> Stephen
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.phxlinux.org/pipermail/plug-discuss/attachments/20161109/a810f984/attachment.html>