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[Eric Oyen]

ok, here is my take on the minimum wage/union/crony capitalism argument.

1. every time the minimum wage has gone up, everything else has followed suit at the same or faster rate. this is well documented over the course of the last 50 years.
2. unions (as the current model goes) are businesses unto themselves they serve very little useful purpose anymore. back when they were first founded, they had the mandate of protecting the workers interest. All of that changed when organized crime became involved. since then, it's been a damaged institution.
3. the only reason that crony capitalism exists is because there are no specific laws to limit it's scope. You have large corporations who hire lobbyists to get what they want out of government. do away with this, and companies will have to do for themselves. no bailouts, no corporate welfare, etc.

in my opinion, a lot of the above has been brought on by corruption and that needs to be handled appropriately. Now, what does all of this mean for IT workers (including coders, security specialists, computer sciences)? well, if the current situation continues, innovation becomes nonexistent, regulations cause other problems and eventually the economy suffers (oh wait! that's happening right now  and for the last 30 years or so!).

Now, if we went back to the "free market" model that existed prior to 30 years ago, we would see more inventiveness and better products.  Hell, back when the internet was conceived (late 1960's), there was a reason for government involvement. Once that technology became publicly available, we saw innovation the likes of which haven't happened since the invention of the light bulb or the telephone. Government basically stood back and let it happen and they kept their fingers largely out of it (a little initial investment and some R&D expenses was about it). Without that, would we be having this conversation via an internet? I think not.

So, basically, your jobs derived from this innovation and without it, we wouldn't even be having this conversation now. Something to think about.

-Eric
Home office of the Technomage Guild

On Dec 9, 2016, at 9:15 AM, Keith Smith wrote:

> 
> What I am hearing Steve, is every job should pay a living wage.  Am I correct?
> 
> I'm old and grey.  I worked a few part-time, minimum wage jobs, when I was in high school and while attending college at a point in my youth when I was trying to find my myself.  I never thought of those jobs as a job I would work at long term or after getting a little older.
> 
> I've always thought, with rare exception that minimum wage jobs are starter jobs.  AND I have always thought that one needs to feel the pain to better themselves.
> 
> I know this might seem a little harsh, however I think if someone finds them self in a minimum wage job at 30 or older, without a plan to progress, then they have no one to blame but them self.  Again, I know there is exceptions.  So lets say my prior statements apply to non-students, retirees, and about 80% of what is left. That leaves some room for the exceptions.
> 
> I'm thinking I read that Seattle Washington min wage caused restaurants to go out of business and minimum wage workers were laid off.
> 
> It is not clear what your point is about hiring your own private army.  Is it that minimum wage will cause increase in crime? Or the the purple squirrels want to reduce government to the point you have to pack an AR-15.
> 
> I think I read some place that the incarcerated tend to be have above average intelligence.  We will always have car thieves and burglars no matter how good the economy and the number of opportunities.
> 
> Those construction guys were channelling their energy in the wrong way. I would venture to say that all of us have been down on our luck at some point in our lives and we did not resort to stealing.  We worked hard to get out of hard luck ville.
> 
> When I was a kid we shopped our neighbor's store and some worked for our neighbor.  The money stayed local.  Walmart replace main street - low paid workers who are subsidized by tax payers.
> 
> This is all crony capitalism.  If we were to remove all the unnatural influences on the market and allow the market to find it's true equilibrium then all of this would take care of itself.
> 
> When I was down on my luck, I did not blame anyone but myself.  I don't buy that we owe anyone a living wage nor is that an excuse for the the break down of society.
> 
> Ponder this for a minute.  Around a hundred and fifty years ago (my time might be off) people where loading all they had in a wagon and travelling West to settle a plot of land given them by the gov.  I would imagine that was quite a hardship.  I'm sure some lost all and some even lost their lives.  This is the spirit this land was built on.  I can go on and on with examples.
> 
> In the end Gov cannot create jobs, all they can do is destroy the economy by getting too involved. If we do not let nature take it's course then we will always have a less than optimal economy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 2016-12-08 13:23, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:56:16 -0700
>> Vara La Fey <varalafey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I sympathize on what a friend calls "the purple squirrel syndrome".
>>> Min wage laws make everything worse. Look at CA. Everyone's expenses
>>> go up, so everyone lays off or tightens budgets.
>> Oh, come on, not that tired crap again!
>> You like not having to spend money to hire your own private army? You
>> like not having your car broken into or stolen once a month?  You like
>> not having to tote an AR-15 everywhere you go because there's war on
>> the streets?
>> If you like those things, you'd better make sure life doesn't get too
>> miserable for too many, because insurrection follows. And one great way
>> to limit misery is to pay a wage that puts a roof over the head and
>> food on the table, and that's the job of a minimum wage.
>> I know, I know, you purple squirrels whip out your elasticity curves to
>> claim that unemployment goes up with a minimum wage, creating even more
>> misery. What is more likely, especially given the last 4 decades'
>> suppression of unions, is that repeal of the minimum wage sends the pay
>> of convenience store clerks and construction laborers down to $2.00/hr.
>> Back in 2003 I had a buddy who worked construction, and he said several
>> of his coworkers did contruction by day and robbed houses by night.
>> Imagine how much such "moonlighting" would increase if workers got only
>> $16.00 for a full day shift's work, when their part of the rent is $400.
>> A full time job that can't keep a person fed and out of the rain isn't
>> a job at all. Morally it shouldn't be legal, and practically allowing
>> such jobs brings societal breakdown.
>> SteveT
>> Steve Litt
>> November 2016 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
>> http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Keith Smith
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