gender bias

Kevin Fries kevin at fries-biro.com
Wed Dec 3 14:46:43 MST 2014 

WARNING!   RANT COMING ON

This entire thread is now getting annoying.   It's like trying to logic
with those protesters in Ferguson.   Your question has been answered.

Your logic is backwards.   It is like saying all serial killers drank milk
as a child, therefore drinking milk will make you want to become a serial
killer.  Regardless of how much you like or dislike milk, you can see the
reverse logic is absurd.

You can not derive cause strictly from result.

In short, even if the answer to your question is that there has NEVER been
a female presenter... this does not mean there is a gender bias.  Too many
other factors contribute!  What proves a gender bias?... actual gender bias.

Have you offered to present and been denied?

Do you know of any other female that has?

If so, then let's talk about that.  But, also have any men been denied also?

You keep asking irrelevant questions because you want an answer that has no
basis.  Your question has been answered, time to move on.

END OF RANT

Love this group,  and hope to catch a meeting of some sort next time I am
in Goodyear (probably within the next 3-4 months)

Kevin
On Dec 2, 2014 8:17 PM, "Kaoru Wilbur" <m.kaoru.wilbur at gmail.com> wrote:

> Again, I ask - when was the last female presenter at PLUG.  Topics are
> good bit please do not deny lack of diversity.
>
> On Tuesday, December 2, 2014, Michelle Lowman <michelle.lowman at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > It has been a long time since I’ve been to a PLUG meeting, but I used to
> be pretty active several years ago. I was frequently the only female in the
> group, and I did a few presentations, including one on software licenses
> that got a bit lively. I’m sure I learned more from that presentation than
> the audience did.  I’m not a bit shy about doing presentations, so that
> helps. :)
> >
> > I don’t know exactly what things are like now, but I will say that when
> I was active, I saw nothing but support from fellow PLUG members. And some
> awkwardness, but that’s just how a lot of us are. I’m not saying that
> discrimination doesn’t happen because I know how much it sucks to report a
> problem and not be believed, but it wasn’t part of my experience with PLUG.
> >
> > Michelle Lowman
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Dec 2, 2014, at 10:55 AM, Brian Cluff <brian at snaptek.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> The leadership cares very much but can't do anything about it if they
> don't see it occur and they aren't told specifics by the people that are
> receiving it.
> >>
> >> If someone in plug is being sexist to you, we need to know about it so
> that we can do something about it.  We _have_ talked about it in meetings,
> but I find that often times the person that is supposedly doing the action
> might not ever be aware they are doing it.
> >>
> >> Lisa pointed out that someone is feeling like he is purposely showing
> off his wedding ring as being sexist.  However I would point out that if
> you watch the videos that I've taken of Hans that you will notice that he
> is Left Handed and if simply pointing with his dominant hand, so it sounds
> like it's a misunderstanding to me.
> >>
> >> He's the only person that I am aware of that has been named and is
> therefore the only person that can be talked to.  He's also the biggest
> proponent of womens rights that I personally know.
> >>
> >> Brian Cluff
> >>
> >> On 12/02/2014 09:23 AM, Kaoru Wilbur wrote:
> >>> I have been laughed at about projects I am working on by one particular
> >>> member, mocked, treated like I don't know my stuff, accused of
> >>> threatening when that was an out and out lie. There are members there,
> >>> Brian who are that way. There are members who are not. Women run from
> >>> these meetings. I saw this at the last PLUG I attended.
> >>> Maybe that's just the general culture, mock and criticize other
> members,
> >>> act arrogant and rude.
> >>>
> >>> There are a few members who are not rude or bias. I'm not saying
> >>> everyone is. However, leadership could care less.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 8:31 AM, Brian Cluff <brian at snaptek.com
> >>> <mailto:brian at snaptek.com>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>    It's true, there are a lot more men in PLUG than there are women,
> >>>    but that's just a reflection of the industry as a whole, and is
> >>>    something we would like to change.
> >>>
> >>>    PLUG does not tolerate anybody being treated as anything but an
> >>>    equal. If anyone feels otherwise I would like to know about it
> >>>    immediately.
> >>>
> >>>    Of course if someone does feel like they are being treated
> >>>    differently the first thing I would have them ask themselves is, was
> >>>    I actually being a asshole during the period I was feeling
> >>>    discriminated against. I think you will find that assholes tend to
> >>>    get ignored in PLUG and has nothing to do with gender.
> >>>
> >>>    Brian Cluff
> >>>
> >>>    On 12/02/2014 12:33 AM, Kaoru Wilbur wrote:
> >>>
> >>>        hans,
> >>>
> >>>        I am sorry you cannot take a joke.
> >>>        Of course, sexual harassment is no joking matter.
> >>>        Accusations of this are quite serious.
> >>>
> >>>        I never witnessed anything or experienced sexual harassment.
> >>>
> >>>        Gender bias is quite obvious in your LUG.
> >>>
> >>>
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