OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.

Lyle Tuttle L.tuttle at cox.net
Tue Aug 31 07:31:21 MST 2010 

Dittos!

At 07:19 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote:

>Yes, some taxes are necessary.  SOME!  Look at the road 
>infrastructure in Metro Phoenix.  Without those roads I-10, 101, 
>202, 303, I-17, 51, 43, businesses would only be able to hire people 
>living within 10 miles.
>
>We still need government to do certain things like fire, police, 
>water, sewer, trash pickup, roads/streets/freeways, parks, military, 
>and possibly a few more things.
>
>I am for a reduction of government by as much as 95%.  And I am for 
>doing away with payroll taxes.  But that is another story for another day.
>
>
>
>------------------------
>Keith Smith
>
>--- On Tue, 8/31/10, Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle at cox.net> wrote:
>
>From: Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle at cox.net>
>Subject: Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.
>To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 6:52 AM
>
>At 06:38 AM 8/31/2010, you wrote:
>
>>This has been a good discussion in that it has helped me understand 
>>why I think Wal-Mart is a cancer.
>>
>>I have had this deep seated feeling that I could not fully 
>>articulate, that I think I understand better now why I felt that way.
>>
>>I do not have the time nor the energy to fully articulate the 
>>entire reasoning, in depth.
>>
>>Let's start at the most fundamental point.  As a Christian I 
>>believe we are part of the community.  I believe we are blessed to 
>>bless.  In other words we should share our time, talents, and 
>>treasures with our community.  I also believe the word of God says 
>>the worker's wages cry our for him.  -  James 5:4 - "Look! The 
>>wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are 
>>crying out against you.".
>>
>>There is two issues here.
>>
>>1) The government is in the process of creating a welfare state 
>>which allows those who are so inclined to redirect that subsistence 
>>into their own pockets.
>>
>>2) Wal-Mart has become an expert in creating an environment where 
>>they funnel our tax dollars, indirectly thought government 
>>subsistence, into their pockets.
>>
>>My point is just because you can does not make it right.  I do not 
>>see Wal-Mart moving to limit government subsistence.  Nor do I see 
>>them working to create an environment where less government 
>>subsistence is necessary. What I do see is a very powerful company 
>>taking advantage of the system instead of working towards fixing 
>>it.  I believe in the book of James it says that a person shall be 
>>know by his works or the fruit he bears.
>>
>>Wal-Mart impacts the community in a bad way.  They lower wages and 
>>kill main street.  I call that sin.  Each one of us has a fiduciary 
>>responsibility to do good not evil.
>>
>>Just one small example.  Wal-Mart contracts with China to make some 
>>of it's products. It has been documented that these Chinese 
>>companies are sweatshops.  Now just because one can does not mean 
>>one should.  This comment only addresses the labor issues, it does 
>>not address the product safety issues.  As of late we have found 
>>that China has a real product safety problem.
>>
>>Lets look at this from my business prospective.  I am a LAMP 
>>developer and I have SEO skills.  I could expand my website to 
>>bring in lots of projects and I could hire some Indian programmers 
>>and designers for $5/hr and I could charge American companies over 
>>$100/hr.  I could probably build a business that could bring in 
>>200k or 300k a year doing so. Under this model I would be able to 
>>keep the vast majority of of what I would charge.  I would be well 
>>off and living high off the hog.
>>
>>I could do this and it is completely legal. If I took on this 
>>business model, I would be thinking only of myself.  Sure I could 
>>tithe to my church and even give to other charities so I could 
>>point to all the good I had done.  In the end I would only be 
>>thinking of Keith.  I would have missed an opportunity to impact my 
>>community in a good and necessary way.
>>
>>Lets look at a different model.  I expand my website and start 
>>bringing in lots of projects.  I hire LAMP programmers from the 
>>local community, and I'm not cheap about it. I make less, however I 
>>have just created wealth within my local community.  These are 
>>American citizens who buy products and services within the local 
>>market.  They pay taxes.  This model helps us all.  Doing business 
>>this way is doing business the right way.
>>
>>Each of us has a responsibility to our community.  If we have, we 
>>must give back in some significant way.  We must get to a point 
>>were we understand what it means to give a hand up not a hand 
>>out.  There are circumstances where long term subsistence is 
>>needed, however there is no place for a dependent class.  We must 
>>create an economy that allows the worker to make a living wage and 
>>have NO need for government subsistence.
>>
>>Just because Wal-Mart can does not mean they should.
>>
>>Notice I have not suggested any government intervention.
>
>Sorry -- you said "They pay taxes."
>
>>  We need no artificial wage control nor do we need vast welfare 
>> programs.  What we need is 1) moral business leaders 2) the Church 
>> to take on it rightful roll in helping those who cannot help 
>> themselves and creating a "hand up" environment.
>>
>>Recently a Christian pastor told me that the government is only 
>>doing what the Church has failed to do.
>>
>>The only problem with the government filling that void is the 
>>government had perverted and is now using dependency for its own 
>>political gain.  There are strings attached when government gets involved.
>>
>>Lets come together as a community and solve this problem.
>>
>>------------------------
>>Keith Smith
>>
>>--- On Mon, 8/30/10, joe at actionline.com <joe at actionline.com> wrote:
>>From: joe at actionline.com <joe at actionline.com>
>>Subject: Re: OT: Plug Digest, Vol 62, Issue 31 - the unfixable problem.
>>To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>>Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 3:10 PM
>>
>> > I would say Wal-mart is a great example of true greed.
>>Keith, I'm really sorry that you seem to have such a hateful attitude
>>toward Walmart. I don't want to pick a fight with you my good friend,
>>but I do feel it's important to clarify a couple things.
>>You asserted:
>> > They require tax cuts to build in your area
>> > and they pay the lowest of low wages.
>>Neither Walmart nor any other business can "require" or coerce any
>>government, city, state, or federal to provide "tax cuts."
>>It is common practice and not in the least bit unethical for any
>>business or any other entity that brings jobs and economic activity to an
>>area to seek incentives to move in to that area. No government is
>>"required" to capitulate to providing such incentives.
>>
>>There is nothing wrong with any business offering whatever wage rates that
>>they may choose to offer.  Walmart can not offer lower wages than the
>>minimum wage and nobody is required to accept or stay in any job that
>>Walmart or any other employer may offer.
>> > They tell their employees to get government subsistence as part
>> > of their model.
>>I seriously question that Walmart "tells" their employees any such thing;
>>however, the point is that Walmart (and every employer) has every right to
>>decide whatever wage rates they want to offer, and nobody is "required" to
>>accept any job that employer may offer.
>> > Basically we subsidize their business model by supporting their
>> > employees with section-8 housing, food stamps, and state funded
>> > health care.
>>That is not Walmart's fault.  It is unrealistic to blame Walmart for what
>>the anti-American socialists among our elected representatives have
>>contrived. Walmart did not do that, did not advocate that, and is not
>>responsible for that.
>> > I have no problem with the needy being helped however when it
>> > becomes part of a business plan, I am against it.
>>Do you really disagree with the notion that you (if you were an employer)
>>or any other employer (including Walmart) should have the right to decide
>>whatever wage rates that they want to offer? Nobody is holding a gun to a
>>Walmart employment applicant's head coercing them to accept any job that
>>Walmart may wish to offer. It is still a free country (so far).
>> > People need to make a living wage.
>>Do you really believe that employers should be coerced by our government
>>to set wage rates that employers should be required to offer other than
>>minimum wage?  Even setting a minimum wage is debatable.
>> > And as they move up they should make a decent wage. In 2002 I worked
>> > with a guy who had been a department manager at Wal-Mart and he left
>> > Wal-Mart because he was only making $8/hr.
>>So what? Good for him that he was free to leave.
>> > Walmart is a cancer in my opinion.
>>Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but what benefit is it and
>>what does it accomplish to hate and berate the largest employer in the
>>world because they have a successful business that provides more
>>employment for more people than any other private sector entity in the
>>world?
>>You recommended:
>> > 
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiSmlmXp-aU&>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiSmlmXp-aU&
>>Robert Greenwald is just another anti-everything Michael Moore type -- a
>>radical, liberal, elitist, left-wing extremist, socialist. It is very
>>surprising to me that you of all people would be swayed by any of his
>>one-sided drivel and distortions.
>>
>><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Greenwald>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Greenwald
>>
>>Greenwald's approach has been to adapt guerrilla filmmaking to political
>>documentaries ... in affiliation with politically sympathetic groups such
>>as Moveon.org.
>>
>>
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