No subject

=0A> >> a bad=0A> >> >> thing, simply=0A> >> >> networking with people I me=
t through=0A> work.=A0 Only=0A> >> >> recently have I=0A> >> >> somewhat op=
ened up to professional=0A> networking=0A> >> though=0A> >> >> LinkedIn and=
 user=0A> >> >> groups like this one, but really just to=0A> keep=0A> >> to=
uch with=0A> >> >> associates and=0A> >> >> clients of mine.=A0 I'm still g=
un shy on=0A> the=0A> >> rest...=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> Since being back in AZ=
, I've worked for a=0A> lot of=0A> >> IT shops=0A> >> >> and been=0A> >> >>=
 exposed to a lot of people shifting=0A> between jobs,=0A> >> finding=0A> >=
> >> that more or=0A> >> >> less most corporate politics surrounding=0A> IT=
 are=0A> >> the same,=0A> >> >> and not=0A> >> >> typically good.=A0 I work=
ed 3 years at=0A> GoDaddy=0A> >> prior and=0A> >> >> through massive=0A> >>=
 >> growth, while one of my best work=0A> experiences=0A> >> (building=0A> =
>> >> cool/expensive=0A> >> >> stuff), it was also one of the worst=0A> (me=
at=0A> >> grinder=0A> >> >> stressful workplace,=0A> >> >> implosive politi=
cs).=A0 GD and frankly a=0A> lot of=0A> >> >> companies I've been=0A> >> >>=
 exposed to are more alike than not,=0A> typically=0A> >> because of=0A> >>=
 >> clueless upper=0A> >> >> management and general lack of ethics,=0A> but=
 somehow=0A> >> forge=0A> >> >> along despite=0A> >> >> themselves.=A0 Clos=
est analogy I can=0A> equated it to=0A> >> >> universally is "the=0A> >> >>=
 blind leading the blind", where=0A> self-serving=0A> >> politics,=0A> >> >=
> combined with=0A> >> >> poor technological leadership, and now=0A> volati=
le=0A> >> economics=0A> >> >> eventually=0A> >> >> dictate perspective reas=
oning of how=0A> things=0A> >> work.=A0 Bad=0A> >> >> things tend to=0A> >>=
 >> result, and often...=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> The difference between working=
 in the Bay=0A> Area and=0A> >> in=0A> >> >> Arizona is stark.=0A> >> >> Ge=
nerally I found a lot better talent=0A> there, with=0A> >> a=0A> >> >> stro=
nger likeliness=0A> >> >> to embrace technology, and be passionate=0A> abou=
t=0A> >> their=0A> >> >> work.=A0 Here there's=0A> >> >> just a lot of peop=
le graduating DeVry,=0A> UoP, WIU,=0A> >> and other=0A> >> >> "schools"=0A>=
 >> >> cranking out mediocre certified/degreed=0A> >> cannon-fodder for=0A>=
 >> >> the local IT=0A> >> >> shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream=0A>=
 job.=0A> >> It's=0A> >> >> almost scary=0A> >> >> walking into new custome=
r businesses=0A> consulting=0A> >> anymore,=0A> >> >> pretty safe to=0A> >>=
 >> assume someone knows nothing than=0A> anything about=0A> >> the tech=0A=
> >> >> they support.=0A> >> >> While I did have this too in the Bay=0A> Ar=
ea, the=0A> >> clueless=0A> >> >> admin syndrome=0A> >> >> is a heck of a l=
ot more prevalent here.=A0=0A> Work=0A> >> ethics=0A> >> >> tend to be crap=
pier=0A> >> >> too.=A0 I dunno, something in the water=0A> perhaps...=0A> >=
> >>=0A> >> >> Look around at the sheer number of call=0A> centers=0A> >> f=
or=0A> >> >> businesses out of=0A> >> >> state we have here, and that shoul=
d tell=0A> you=0A> >> >> something.=A0 A lot of=0A> >> >> low-pay, mediocre=
 jobs, and a career path=0A> to=0A> >> become a=0A> >> >> cattle herder of=
=0A> >> >> these call centers, maybe even move into=0A> middle=0A> >> manag=
ement=0A> >> >> if you're=0A> >> >> lucky.=A0 Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wir=
e,=0A> CableOne,=0A> >> Cox,=0A> >> >> ETelecare, etc=0A> >> >> simply rota=
te people in and out like=0A> underwear,=0A> >> but they're=0A> >> >> the a=
rmpits=0A> >> >> that fund a lot of the IT business around=0A> town as=0A> =
>> well, as=0A> >> >> someone's got=0A> >> >> to support all the infrastruc=
ture to take=0A> those=0A> >> >> calls.=A0 Godaddy's call=0A> >> >> centers=
 are slightly different because=0A> they=0A> >> actually MAKE=0A> >> >> the=
m money, so=0A> >> >> they tend to commission merit pay and=0A> lavish gift=
s=0A> >> readily=0A> >> >> upon them to=0A> >> >> keep everyone happy, but =
it's still at=0A> the root=0A> >> just=0A> >> >> another sweatshop=0A> >> >=
> call center.=A0 Other call centers are=0A> much less=0A> >> >> forgiving.=
..=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> Supporting IT shops around call centers=0A> tends to=
=0A> >> be a=0A> >> >> double-edged=0A> >> >> sword, especially when the ca=
ll center=0A> slave=0A> >> mentality=0A> >> >> pervades into the=0A> >> >> =
how companies deal with or even drive IT=0A> folk.=0A> >> Even=0A> >> >> no=
n-call-centers=0A> >> >> seem to act this way locally more=0A> commonly tha=
n=0A> >> not, just=0A> >> >> because they=0A> >> >> can, and it's the atmos=
phere people are=0A> becoming=0A> >> acclimated=0A> >> >> to.=A0 As=0A> >> =
>> people migrate jobs, I think ultimately=0A> this=0A> >> pervasive=0A> >>=
 >> mentality results=0A> >> >> in excessive overwork and general=0A> dissa=
tisfaction,=0A> >> causing=0A> >> >> a=0A> >> >> trickle-down effect into o=
ther work=0A> places.=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> These=0A> disinterested/jaded/ove=
rworked/underpaid=0A> >> workers now=0A> >> >> head out into=0A> >> >> othe=
r IT shops to maintain infrastructure=0A> over=0A> >> their head=0A> >> >> =
and=0A> >> >> undermanned, meaning things degrade=0A> eventually=0A> >> eve=
n if once=0A> >> >> deployed=0A> >> >> properly.=A0 I'm not at all certain =
if=0A> this is just=0A> >> a=0A> >> >> local thing, or the=0A> >> >> new na=
tional standard at work, but it=0A> seems much=0A> >> more=0A> >> >> pervas=
ive here=0A> >> >> than certain other localities I work=0A> with.=0A> >> >>=
 Professional ethics are hard=0A> >> >> to find these days in general with =
hard=0A> times=0A> >> indeed.=0A> >> >> Anyone else of=0A> >> >> hiring cap=
acity notice try hiring *good*=0A> people=0A> >> these=0A> >> >> days?=A0 P=
retty=0A> >> >> difficult if you ask me.=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> Overall, worki=
ng in the tech field here=0A> for the=0A> >> past 8=0A> >> >> years in a mo=
re=0A> >> >> senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I=0A> want to=0A> >> rema=
in in AZ=0A> >> >> long-term.=0A> >> >> As I get older, my flame to set upo=
n the=0A> world=0A> >> diminishes,=0A> >> >> I'll probably=0A> >> >> just w=
ander until I feel comfortable for=0A> a bit.=0A> >> I=0A> >> >> love AZ, b=
ut I'm=0A> >> >> fairly disparaged by the business=0A> opportunities=0A> >>=
 here after=0A> >> >> all these=0A> >> >> years...=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> So e=
nough hot-air of my own, take it as=0A> you will,=0A> >> but=0A> >> >> that=
's my take on=0A> >> >> things.=A0 Feel free to disagree.=A0 :)=0A> >> >>=
=0A> >> >> Good discussion indeed, interesting to=0A> hear=0A> >> other's=
=0A> >> >> opinions on the=0A> >> >> matter.=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> -mb=0A> >>=
 >>=0A> >> >>=0A> >> >> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua=0A> Zeidn=
er=0A> >> wrote:=0A> >> >> > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM,=0A> keith=0A> =
>> smith<klsmith2020 at yahoo.com>=0A> >> >> wrote:=0A> >> >> > >=0A> >> >> > =
>=0A> >> >> > > I think what is really missing=0A> from this=0A> >> equatio=
n=0A> >> >> is mentoring and training.=0A> >> >> >=0A> >> >> >=A0=A0=A0what=
 I would like to see is=0A> some real=0A> >> >> support from AZ government =
to=0A> >> >> > help make tech companies feel=0A> welcome here.=0A> >> This=
=0A> >> >> means:=0A> >> >> >=0A> >> >> >=A0=A0=A01) making the valley a go=
od=0A> place not=0A> >> >> only to build a company but to=0A> >> >> > build=
 a *career*.=A0 this means buy=0A> in from=0A> >> both=0A> >> >> sides of t=
he equation.=0A> >> >> > I would like to see a bit more=0A> address at=0A> =
>> lower=0A> >> >> capital levels, but=0A> >> >> > that may prove to be dif=
ficult.=A0 It=0A> seems=0A> >> that=0A> >> >> most existing concepts=0A> >>=
 >> > are kind of stuck in the industrial=0A> model,=0A> >> where you=0A> >=
> >> build a factory=0A> >> >> > in a place with low taxes and hire=0A> low=
 wage=0A> >> workers,=0A> >> >> but technology=0A> >> >> > requires high wa=
ge workers who=0A> demand a good=0A> >> thriving=0A> >> >> job market.=A0 T=
he=0A> >> >> > needs are quite different.=A0 The=0A> biggest=0A> >> issue=
=0A> >> >> with starting a company=0A> >> >> > out here is finding people.=
=A0 Where=0A> are all=0A> >> the=0A> >> >> people?=A0 in CA.=0A> >> >> > be=
cause it has a good job market.=A0=0A> If we=0A> >> can=0A> >> >> outsource=
 to India, we=0A> >> >> > sure as hell can outsource to=0A> Arizona.=0A> >>=
 >> >=0A> >> >> >=A0=A0=A02) setting up low cost legal=0A> >> >> structure =
and as you say mentoring to=0A> >> >> > really help stimulate technology=0A=
> >> development.=0A> >> >> We've seen (at least=0A> >> >> > nominal) effor=
ts in the past.=A0 Why=0A> did they=0A> >> >> fail?=A0 This means real and=
=0A> >> >> > adequate assistance in bringing=0A> concepts to=0A> >> product=
ion=0A> >> >> and market.=A0 A=0A> >> >> > small investment in this area wi=
ll=0A> yield=0A> >> returns in=0A> >> >> tax base and=0A> >> >> > property =
value by a factor of=0A> hundreds.=0A> >> Arizona=0A> >> >> has the potenti=
al to=0A> >> >> > pick up a lot of this commercial=0A> activity=0A> >> beca=
use=0A> >> >> California is=0A> >> >> > currently set to become a tax=0A> s=
trapped=0A> >> nightmare state=0A> >> >> to build your=0A> >> >> > business=
.=A0 If AZ fails to see the=0A> >> opportunity=0A> >> >> here, we will lose=
 out=0A> >> >> > big time.=A0 Currently the budget=0A> proceedings=0A> >> a=
re=0A> >> >> still in gridlock.=0A> >> >> >=0A> >> >> >=A0=A0=A0the mayor o=
f Phoenix seems to=0A> have=0A> >> >> the right idea, he was suggesting=0A>=
 >> >> > recently a green technology center=0A> near Phx=0A> >> >> center.=
=A0 I think thats the=0A> >> >> > direction AZ needs to go.=A0 -jmz=0A> >> =
>> >=0A> >> >> > >=0A> >> >> > > I like the idea that folks are=0A> getting=
=0A> >> together=0A> >> >> to network.=A0 This is a really cool=0A> idea.=
=A0 Even=0A> >> for=0A> >> >> non-technical stuff like finding out how=0A> =
people=0A> >> deal with=0A> >> >> customers, contracting, book-keeping,=0A>=
 ETC.=0A> >> >> > >=0A> >> >> > >=0A> >> >> > >=0A> >> >> > >=0A> >> >> > >=
 ------------------------=0A> >> >> > > Keith Smith=0A> >> >> > >=0A> >> >>=
 > >=0A> >> >> > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua=0A> Zeidner=0A> >> <jjzeidner=
@gmail.com>=0A> >> >> wrote:=0A> >> >> > >=0A> >> >> > >> From: Joshua Zeid=
ner <jjzeidner at gmail.com>=0A> >> >> > >> Subject: Re:=0A> Geek/Tech/Entrepr=
eneur=0A> >> Stuff to=0A> >> >> do in PHX=0A> >> >> > >> To: "Main PLUG dis=
cussion=0A> list"=0A> >> <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>=0A> >> >> =
> >> Date: Saturday, August 1,=0A> 2009, 6:08=0A> >> PM=0A> >> >> > >> On F=
ri, Jul 31, 2009 at=0A> 11:09 PM,=0A> >> >> > >> Alan Dayley<alandd at consult=
pros.com>=0A> >> >> > >> wrote:=0A> >> >> > >> > Joshua,=0A> >> >> > >> >=
=0A> >> >> > >> > I put all your replies=0A> together=0A> >> in one=0A> >> =
>> long document=0A> >> >> > >> and reread them.=0A> >> >> > >> > I am stil=
l confused a=0A> bit.=0A> >> >> Enlightenment via email=0A> >> >> > >> rare=
ly occurs.=0A> >> >> > >> > However, I really want=0A> to=0A> >> understand=
=0A> >> >> your position in=0A> >> >> > >> this discussion.=0A> >> >> > >> =
>=A0 Let me summarize=0A> what I=0A> >> understand=0A> >> >> from your=0A> =
>> >> > >> replies.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > ---[Start my=0A> para=
phasing of=0A> >> your=0A> >> >> comments]---=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > =
>> > - There is a small=0A> group or=0A> >> groups of=0A> >> >> people who =
keep=0A> >> >> > >> spinning off=0A> >> >> > >> > communities using=0A> tir=
ed=0A> >> marketing=0A> >> >> techniques.=A0 This=0A> >> >> > >> results in=
 blogs=0A> >> >> > >> > but not true=0A> communities.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> =
>> >> > >> > - Some of these people=0A> cannot=0A> >> deal with=0A> >> >> e=
xisting=0A> >> >> > >> structure and the=0A> >> >> > >> > efforts of the pa=
st.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > - These weak attempts=0A> do not=0A> =
>> articulate=0A> >> >> goals or=0A> >> >> > >> purpose well, if at all.=0A=
> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > - We must honestly=0A> look at=0A> >> criti=
cism to=0A> >> >> learn and=0A> >> >> > >> improve.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >>=
 >> > >> > - These weak people=0A> need to=0A> >> address the=0A> >> >> eff=
orts of the=0A> >> >> > >> past and=0A> >> >> > >> > provide suggestions on=
=0A> how they=0A> >> can be=0A> >> >> improved upon.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >=
> >> > >> > - Getting political=0A> support=0A> >> will provide=0A> >> >> l=
egitimacy to=0A> >> >> > >> their efforts.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> =
> - Phoenix will=0A> attract=0A> >> technology=0A> >> >> businesses because=
=0A> >> >> > >> of the relative=0A> >> >> > >> > low cost and this will=0A>=
 help=0A> >> improve=0A> >> >> things.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > - =
You have first hand=0A> >> experiences of=0A> >> >> weak, marketing=0A> >> =
>> > >> fronted,=0A> >> >> > >> > community building=0A> efforts.=0A> >> >>=
 > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs'=0A> have=0A> >> grand ideas=
=0A> >> >> but get=0A> >> >> > >> nowhere with them=0A> >> >> > >> > becaus=
e they are not=0A> real=0A> >> businesses.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> =
> - People at a=0A> co-working=0A> >> location or=0A> >> >> coffee shop wil=
l=0A> >> >> > >> not help you=0A> >> >> > >> > with your business=0A> unles=
s you=0A> >> pay them.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > - Most people at=
=0A> co-working=0A> >> started=0A> >> >> their one person=0A> >> >> > >> bu=
siness after=0A> >> >> > >> > being laid-off and are=0A> not=0A> >> serious=
 about=0A> >> >> it.=A0 They=0A> >> >> > >> are really just=0A> >> >> > >> =
> looking for the next=0A> full time=0A> >> >> gig.=A0 This will get in=0A>=
 >> >> > >> your way if you=0A> >> >> > >> > have real business=0A> work to=
 do.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > - We must look=0A> truthfully at=0A>=
 >> this issue=0A> >> >> if we are to=0A> >> >> > >> make progress.=0A> >> =
>> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > - There are no=0A> serious=0A> >> incubators and=
=0A> >> >> entrepreneurial=0A> >> >> > >> meetups in=0A> >> >> > >> > Phoen=
ix.=A0 No=0A> announcements on=0A> >> VC=0A> >> >> funding of companies=0A>=
 >> >> > >> so it's not=0A> >> >> > >> > really entrepreneurial=0A> growth.=
=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > ---[End my=0A> paraphrasing of=0A> >> yo=
ur=0A> >> >> comments]---=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > I see validity =
in=0A> every one of=0A> >> these=0A> >> >> comments.=A0 I=0A> >> >> > >> al=
so think many of=0A> >> >> > >> > them can be balanced=0A> by the=0A> >> ot=
her point=0A> >> >> of view.=A0 I=0A> >> >> > >> still have=0A> >> >> > >> =
> questions, if I may=0A> ask, before=0A> >> I state=0A> >> >> too much of =
my=0A> >> >> > >> own thinking.=0A> >> >> > >> > I want to learn more=0A> a=
bout=0A> >> your=0A> >> >> thinking.=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > 1. W=
hat does "deal=0A> with=0A> >> existing=0A> >> >> structure" mean?=0A> >> >=
> > >>=A0 This confuses me,=0A> >> >> > >> > not know what=0A> structure yo=
u are=0A> >> talking=0A> >> >> about.=0A> >> >> > >>=0A> >> >> > >>=A0=A0=
=A0Many user groups have=0A> been=0A> >> >> formed and continue to=0A> >> >=
> > >> exist... how is=0A> >> >> > >> <groupX> different?=A0=0A> other=0A> =
>> than=0A> >> >> its led by=0A> >> >> > >> person Y?=A0 I mean dealing=0A>=
 >> >> > >> with some of these groups I=0A> feel=0A> >> like Im back=0A> >>=
 >> to age 8=0A> >> >> > >> trying to gain=0A> >> >> > >> admittance into t=
he=0A> neighborhood=0A> >> >> treehouse.=A0 Perhaps I=0A> >> >> > >> should=
 spend=0A> >> >> > >> more time drinking beer=0A> with these=0A> >> >> peop=
le?=A0 Seeing the=0A> >> >> > >> same small=0A> >> >> > >> group churning o=
ut=0A> 'communities' is=0A> >> at first=0A> >> >> funny, then=0A> >> >> > >=
> annoying.=A0 I=0A> >> >> > >> just see a real lack of=0A> serious=0A> >> =
intent, and=0A> >> >> unless that is=0A> >> >> > >> noted=0A> >> >> > >> pu=
blicly, it makes all of=0A> us look=0A> >> bad.=0A> >> >> I really dont=0A>=
 >> >> > >> think Im being=0A> >> >> > >> destructive or malicious=0A> here=
, Im=0A> >> pointing=0A> >> >> out some valid=0A> >> >> > >> observations.=
=0A> >> >> > >>=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > 2. To what efforts of=0A>=
 the past=0A> >> are you=0A> >> >> referring?=A0 I=0A> >> >> > >> want to=
=0A> >> >> > >> > understand the size=0A> and nature=0A> >> of=0A> >> >> ef=
forts to creating=0A> >> >> > >> a community that=0A> >> >> > >> > you feel=
 were=0A> legitimate but=0A> >> perhaps did=0A> >> >> not work as=0A> >> >>=
 > >> planned.=0A> >> >> > >>=0A> >> >> > >>=A0=A0=A0I remember when I=0A> =
first came=0A> >> >> to AZ that there was an=0A> >> >> > >> tech=0A> >> >> =
> >> incubator...=A0 what=0A> happened to it?=0A> >> >> Which=0A> >> >> > >=
> political agents currently=0A> >> >> > >> support technology=0A> developm=
ent in=0A> >> the=0A> >> >> valley?=A0 what do=0A> >> >> > >> they think=0A=
> >> >> > >> about your org?=A0 these=0A> things are=0A> >> pretty=0A> >> >=
> basic...=0A> >> >> > >>=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > 3. What politic=
al=0A> support is=0A> >> >> needed?=A0 You mean=0A> >> >> > >> government f=
unding of=0A> >> >> > >> > events or startups or=0A> just=0A> >> verbal=0A>=
 >> >> support or what?=0A> >> >> > >>=0A> >> >> > >>=A0=A0=A0I wouldn't ex=
pect=0A> funding,=0A> >> >> but it would be good to=0A> >> >> > >> see some=
=0A> >> >> > >> political buy in.=A0 Lack of=0A> just=0A> >> supports=0A> >=
> >> my opinions,=0A> >> >> > >> that its really=0A> >> >> > >> as Lisa sai=
d, camouflage=0A> for poor=0A> >> >> organization.=0A> >> >> > >> Without a=
ny good=0A> >> >> > >> signposts, all this will=0A> produce are=0A> >> peop=
le=0A> >> >> who get jaded=0A> >> >> > >> and=0A> >> >> > >> disaffected wi=
th regards to=0A> this=0A> >> >> location.=A0 If you had=0A> >> >> > >> som=
ething=0A> >> >> > >> together I doubt that a=0A> good=0A> >> politician wo=
uld=0A> >> >> turn you=0A> >> >> > >> down.=0A> >> >> > >>=0A> >> >> > >> >=
=0A> >> >> > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or=0A> a problem=0A> >> for=0A> >> >> =
someone who is=0A> >> >> > >> laid-off to have=0A> >> >> > >> > grand ideas=
, talk=0A> about them=0A> >> and they=0A> >> >> never come to=0A> >> >> > >=
> be?=0A> >> >> > >>=0A> >> >> > >>=A0=A0=A0Its not.=A0 As I said,=0A> I=0A=
> >> >> don't find any of these=0A> >> >> > >> things highly=0A> >> >> > >>=
 offensive- but like you I=0A> am free to=0A> >> express=0A> >> >> myself.=
=0A> >> >> > >> Sorry if its not=0A> >> >> > >> filled with abundant=0A> ex=
altations.=0A> >> >> > >>=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > 5. Is it not=0A=
> conceivable that=0A> >> people=0A> >> >> might help each=0A> >> >> > >> o=
ther in business=0A> >> >> > >> > efforts?=A0 Isn't=0A> strengthening=0A> >=
> and=0A> >> >> creating such a=0A> >> >> > >> culture a good idea=0A> >> >=
> > >> > or should such a goal=0A> not be=0A> >> pursued=0A> >> >> because =
it is not=0A> >> >> > >> practically=0A> >> >> > >> > possible?=0A> >> >> >=
 >>=0A> >> >> > >>=A0=A0=A0sure.=A0 good thread=0A> >> >> btw.=A0 -jmz=0A> =
>> >> > >>=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > Alan=0A> >> >> > >> >=0A> >> >=
> > >> >=0A> >> >> > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009=0A> at 4:20=0A> >> PM, Joshu=
a=0A> >> >> Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com>=0A> >> >> > >> wrote:=0A> >> >> > =
>> >> another great=0A> one:=0A> >> >> > >> >>=0A> >> >> > >> >> "OK, my qu=
estion=0A> stands.=0A> >> Where are=0A> >> >> the incubators,=0A> >> >> > >=
> the "bootstrap"=0A> >> >> > >> >> seminars, the=0A> serious=0A> >> >> ent=
repreneurial meetups in=0A> >> >> > >> Phoenix??? (crickets=0A> >> >> > >> =
>> chirping). Phoenix=0A> just=0A> >> ain't=0A> >> >> happening as a=0A> >>=
 >> > >> serious place where=0A> >> >> > >> >> serious people are=0A> doing=
=0A> >> serious=0A> >> >> things. No one=0A> >> >> > >> wants it badly enou=
gh=0A> >> >> > >> >> here. This paper=0A> should be=0A> >> having at=0A> >>=
 >> least one=0A> >> >> > >> article a week on a new=0A> >> >> > >> >> star=
tup and the VC=0A> firm who=0A> >> funded=0A> >> >> it.=0A> >> >> > >> Hell=
oooo????? is anybody=0A> out=0A> >> >> > >> >> there...."=0A> >> >> > >> >>=
=0A> >> >> > >> >> a better way to=0A> phrase=0A> >> this: we need=0A> >> >=
> to stop=0A> >> >> > >> pretending these=0A> >> >> > >> >> whimsical effor=
ts=0A> churned=0A> >> out by=0A> >> >> local=0A> >> >> > >> self-employed m=
arketing=0A> experts=0A> >> >> > >> >> are sufficient.=A0=0A> They are=0A> =
>> >> not.=A0 We should be=0A> >> >> > >> asking the hard=0A> >> >> > >> >>=
 questions, not=0A> playing=0A> >> games.=0A> >> >> > >> >>=0A> >> >> > >> =
>> -jmz=0A> >> >> > >> >>=0A> >> >> > >> >>=0A> >> >> > >> >> On Fri, Jul 3=
1,=0A> 2009 at=0A> >> 4:04 PM,=0A> >> >> Joshua=0A> >> >> > >> Zeidner<jjze=
idner at gmail.com>=0A> >> >> > >> wrote:=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=A0 another=0A> po=
int,=0A> >> honestly=0A> >> >> reading through some=0A> >> >> > >> of the c=
riticisms on=0A> >> >> > >> >>> azcentral and=0A> being of=0A> >> the cafe=
=0A> >> >> dwelling creed=0A> >> >> > >> myself, I'd have to say=0A> >> >> =
> >> >>> that many of=0A> those=0A> >> points are=0A> >> >> accurate.=A0 I'=
ve=0A> >> >> > >> heard lots of=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=0A> 'entrepreneurs' with=
=0A> >> big ideas=0A> >> >> around here who=0A> >> >> > >> never get anywhe=
re with=0A> >> >> > >> >>> them.=A0 Sorry,=0A> but a=0A> >> word=0A> >> >> =
press template=0A> >> >> > >> doesn't make you an=0A> >> >> > >> >>> entrep=
reneur.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=A0 "These are=0A> the same=0A=
> >> people=0A> >> >> you see at=0A> >> >> > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>> other wi-fi=0A> hot spot,=0A> >> they are=0A> >> >> not=
=0A> >> >> > >> entrepreneurs they are=0A> attention=0A> >> >> > >> >>> (in=
appropriate=0A> term)."=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=A0 "Many of=
=0A> the=0A> >> Co-Worker=0A> >> >> location founders=0A> >> >> > >> tout o=
ther people to=0A> >> >> > >> >>> collaborate=0A> with and=0A> >> who can=
=0A> >> >> "compensate for=0A> >> >> > >> your deficiencies". Do=0A> >> >> =
> >> >>> you really=0A> believe=0A> >> someone that=0A> >> >> you are not=
=0A> >> >> > >> paying as an employee is=0A> >> >> > >> >>> going to=0A> so=
mehow=0A> >> compensate for=0A> >> >> your=0A> >> >> > >> deficiencies and =
make your=0A> >> >> > >> >>> business=0A> better? That=0A> >> kind of=0A> >=
> >> help doesn't=0A> >> >> > >> come without a price."=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=A0 oh so=0A> true...=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=0A> >> >> > >> =
>>>=A0 "You are=0A> more likely=0A> >> to=0A> >> >> get a bunch of=0A> >> >=
> > >> people chatting to you=0A> over=0A> >> >> > >> >>> your "work" so=0A=
> you wont=0A> >> be=0A> >> >> concentrating as=0A> >> >> > >> you should t=
o focus on=0A> >> >> > >> >>> your business.=0A> Most of=0A> >> these=0A> >=
> >> people started=0A> >> >> > >> businesses after being=0A> >> >> > >> >>=
> laid off. They=0A> are=0A> >> searching for=0A> >> >> a new job and=0A> >=
> >> > >> they aren't really=0A> >> >> > >> >>> serious about=0A> their=0A>=
 >> "businesses"=0A> >> >> so how do you=0A> >> >> > >> expect them to give=
 you=0A> >> >> > >> >>> valuable,=0A> serious=0A> >> advice. Are=0A> >> >> =
these the kind=0A> >> >> > >> of people you need to=0A> >> >> > >> >>> comp=
ensate for=0A> your=0A> >> >> deficiencies? A bunch of=0A> >> >> > >> peopl=
e half-as running=0A> >> >> > >> >>> their=0A> "business" while=0A> >> sear=
ching=0A> >> >> for a real=0A> >> >> > >> job and bothering you with=0A> >>=
 >> > >> >>> their=0A> expertise that=0A> >> got them=0A> >> >> laid off in=
 the=0A> >> >> > >> first place."=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=A0 =
oh so so=0A> true...=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=A0 I would be=0A=
> willing to=0A> >> bet=0A> >> >> the commenter=0A> >> >> > >> above is an =
tried and true=0A> >> >> > >> >>> successful=0A> >> entrepreneur.=0A> >> >>=
 Perhaps the reason=0A> >> >> > >> I am so skeptical is=0A> >> >> > >> >>> =
because I know=0A> these=0A> >> kind of=0A> >> >> people so well.=0A> >> >>=
 > >> >>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=A0 sorry I=0A> really wish=0A> >> I=0A> >> >> =
could be more=0A> >> >> > >> supportive... but :=A0 truth=0A> is=0A> >> >> =
> >> >>> the foundation=0A> of=0A> >> progress.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=0A> >> >=
> > >> >>>=A0 -jmz=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=
 On Fri, Jul=0A> 31, 2009 at=0A> >> 3:28 PM,=0A> >> >> Joshua=0A> >> >> > >=
> Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com>=0A> >> >> > >> wrote:=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>=A0=
 Alan,=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>=A0 =A0 Wish=0A> I had=0A> >>=
 time=0A> >> >> to respond to all=0A> >> >> > >> these points right now, no=
t=0A> sure=0A> >> >> > >> >>>> you read=0A> me the way=0A> >> I would=0A> >=
> >> prefer=0A> >> >> > >> however.=A0 Its not so grave=0A> a=0A> >> >> > >=
> >>>> warning,=0A> just=0A> >> getting the=0A> >> >> word out on my=0A> >>=
 >> > >> first hand experiences.=A0=0A> Im=0A> >> >> > >> >>>> just one=0A>=
 of many-=0A> >> but=0A> >> >> hopefully an=0A> >> >> > >> impartial observ=
er and=0A> someone=0A> >> >> > >> >>>> genuinely=0A> concerned=0A> >> for A=
Z.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>=A0 all the=0A> best,=0A> >> jmz=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>> On Fri,=0A> Ju=
l 31,=0A> >> 2009 at 3:12=0A> >> >> PM, Alan=0A> >> >> > >> Dayley<alandd at c=
onsultpros.com>=0A> >> >> > >> wrote:=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> Josh,=0A> >> >> =
> >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> I=0A> feel=0A> >> warned.=A0 And=0A> >> >> =
I don't=0A> >> >> > >> understand the reason for=0A> such a=0A> >> strong=
=0A> >> >> warning.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> There=0A> are=
=0A> >> people in=0A> >> >> every industry,=0A> >> >> > >> government or co=
mmunity who=0A> wish=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> to=0A> fleece=0A> >> their=0A> >>=
 >> "community" for their=0A> >> >> > >> own profit instead of=0A> mutual=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> benefit.=A0 The=0A> >> trick=0A> >> >> is to find=
 the=0A> >> >> > >> positive people and ignore=0A> the=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=
=0A> rest.=A0 Apply=0A> >> the=0A> >> >> same filter with=0A> >> >> > >> ev=
ery event, group or=0A> blogger in=0A> >> the=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> lists=0A=
> and links=0A> >> I=0A> >> >> provided.=A0 I don't=0A> >> >> > >> expect b=
loggers or techies=0A> to be=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> any=0A> different,=0A> >>=
 as if=0A> >> >> being techie=0A> >> >> > >> makes one a saint.=0A> >> >> >=
 >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> Some=0A> of those=0A> >> bloggers=0A> >> >> =
are purely=0A> >> >> > >> commercial or completely=0A> neglected,=0A> >> >>=
 > >> >>>>> I'm=0A> sure.=0A> >> Some of=0A> >> >> the groups or=0A> >> >> =
> >> events or sites listed are=0A> lousy,=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> boring=0A> =
or poor=0A> >> marketing=0A> >> >> excuses to=0A> >> >> > >> sell something=
.=A0 Some are=0A> not out=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> to=0A> create=0A> >> communi=
ty but=0A> >> >> to build a=0A> >> >> > >> "kingdom" for their own=0A> bene=
fit.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> They=0A> are the=0A> >> duds.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>=
>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> Let's=0A> look at a=0A> >> few=0A> >> >> positives:=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> - Read=0A> the=0A> >> Gangplank=
=0A> >> >> Manifesto on=0A> >> >> > >> their home page at=0A> >> >> > >> >>=
>>> http://gangplankhq.com.=A0 That looks like=0A> >> >> > >> a great artic=
ulation of=0A> their=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> goals=0A> and=0A> >> purpose.=0A>=
 >> >> Ones I strongly=0A> >> >> > >> support!=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> --=0A> =
Read how=0A> >> the=0A> >> >> manifesto came to be=0A> >> >> > >> on Derek'=
s blog at=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborat=
ive-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>=
>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> -=0A> Gangplank has=0A> >> hosted=0A> >> >> or is ho=
sting:=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> --=0A> MobiFest - a=0A> >> day long=0A> >> >> c=
onference on=0A> >> >> > >> developing for phones like=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=
 iPhone=0A> or=0A> >> Android=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> --=0A> Gangplank=0A> >> =
Jr. - a 2-3=0A> >> >> hour Saturday=0A> >> >> > >> event for kids 5-15 to=
=0A> learn=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> programming=0A> >> concepts=0A> >> >> >=
 >> >>>>> --=0A> Wordpress=0A> >> training=0A> >> >> classes for=0A> >> >> =
> >> minimal cost or no-cost=0A> for=0A> >> non-profit orgs=0A> >> >> > >> =
>>>>> --=0A> Laid Off=0A> >> Camp - a day=0A> >> >> long=0A> >> >> > >> con=
ference on job searching=0A> and=0A> >> >> entreprenuership=0A> >> >> > >> =
>>>>> --=0A> Barcamp=0A> >> Pheonix - a=0A> >> >> day long=0A> >> >> > >> c=
onference on software=0A> development=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> --=0A> TEDx nigh=
t -=0A> >> Watch=0A> >> >> ted.com videos=0A> >> >> > >> and discuss them=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> --=0A> OpenPhoenix=0A> >> - a night=0A> >> >> of open=
 mic=0A> >> >> > >> music and entertainment=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> =
> >> >>>>> - The=0A> last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th =
and=0A> >> >> > >> nearly=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> filled=0A> DeVry's=0A> >> Ph=
oenix=0A> >> >> campus with=0A> >> >> > >> developers talking about=0A> cod=
e or=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> making=0A> code.=0A> >> Free=0A> >> >> lunch of p=
izza and=0A> >> >> > >> sub sandwiches was provided=0A> too.=0A> >> >> > >>=
 >>>>>=A0 Put=0A> together=0A> >> by=0A> >> >> volunteers.=0A> >> >> > >> >=
>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> - If=0A> you're=0A> >> into=0A> >> >> Microsoft b=
ased=0A> >> >> > >> development tech, the=0A> people who=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=
>>=0A> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> venues=0A> like the=0A> >> Orphium=0A> >> >> Theater =
and at=0A> >> >> > >> no cost to attendees.=A0=0A> Fine,=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=
>> it's=0A> marketing=0A> >> for MS=0A> >> >> but it's put on=0A> >> >> > >=
> by volunteers here in the=0A> valley=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> and a=0A> great=
 way=0A> >> for=0A> >> >> people to learn=0A> >> >> > >> about things that =
improve=0A> their=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> career=0A> skills.=0A> >> >> > >> >>=
>>> (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthr=
ie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx)=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> - =
The=0A> local=0A> >> Ruby On=0A> >> >> Rails group has=0A> >> >> > >> month=
ly meetings with=0A> around 30=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> regularly in=0A> >>=
 >> attendance.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The=0A> Java=0A=
> >> group is also=0A> >> >> well attended=0A> >> >> > >> every month.=0A> =
>> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The=0A> third http://podcampaz.com/=
 is coming up in November, put on=0A> >> >> > >> by=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A=
> voluteers at no=0A> >> cost=0A> >> >> (donation=0A> >> >> > >> requested)=
 to attendees.=A0=0A> Had about=0A> >> 350=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> people=0A> =
attend=0A> >> last year=0A> >> >> (if I recall)=0A> >> >> > >> for two days=
 of=0A> conference.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The=0A> htt=
p://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in=0A> >> >> > >> November=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> for=0A> the forth=0A> >> >> year.=A0 This one costs=
=0A> >> >> > >> $100+ but should be as=0A> well=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> at=
tended as=0A> >> last year=0A> >> >> with 200+=0A> >> >> > >> people.=A0 Fu=
nded and=0A> organized in=0A> >> part=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> by a=0A> local=
=0A> >> venture=0A> >> >> capital group.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >=
> >>>>> - The=0A> first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago=
=0A> >> >> with=0A> >> >> > >> a=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> little=0A> over 100=
=0A> >> in=0A> >> >> attendance and has=0A> >> >> > >> grown to fill the 60=
0 seat=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> Theather at=0A> >> Tempe Center=0A> >> >> f=
or the Arts=0A> >> >> > >> back in June.=A0 The=0A> connections=0A> >> >> >=
 >> >>>>> made=0A> there live=0A> >> well=0A> >> >> past the event.=0A> >> =
>> > >> >>>>> -- Oh,=0A> a city=0A> >> council=0A> >> >> member and the=0A>=
 >> >> > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this=0A> last=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> time,=
=0A> though he=0A> >> was a=0A> >> >> bit silly trying=0A> >> >> > >> to be=
 Tempe exclusive.=A0=0A> That=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> seems=0A> to be at=0A> >=
> least=0A> >> >> verbal political=0A> >> >> > >> support.=0A> >> >> > >> >=
>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> - The=0A> second=0A> >> ABLEConf on=0A> >> >> FS/=
OSS is=0A> >> >> > >> being planned for October=0A> and=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>=
> should=0A> be=0A> >> better than=0A> >> >> last year. (Go=0A> >> >> > >> =
Hans and team!)=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> I'm=0A> not going=
=0A> >> to go on,=0A> >> >> though I could=0A> >> >> > >> point out several=
 purely=0A> social=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> events=0A> like http://phoenixfrida=
ynights.com/, it's east and west=0A> >> >> > >> valley=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=
=0A> analogs, East=0A> >> Valley=0A> >> >> Thursday Morning=0A> >> >> > >> =
breakfasts, Tempe Geeks=0A> Lunch,=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> South=0A> Valley=0A=
> >> Geek Meet=0A> >> >> and Eat and=0A> >> >> > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag=
=0A> lunch=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> presentations=0A> >> every=0A> >> >> We=
dnesday.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> Now,=0A> having=0A> >> s=
aid all of=0A> >> >> that "giddy=0A> >> >> > >> blind optimism," I'd like=
=0A> to=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> understand how=0A> >> the above=0A> >> >> =
does not=0A> >> >> > >> address the efforts of the=0A> past or=0A> >> >> > =
>> >>>>>=0A> provide=0A> >> improvement over=0A> >> >> past efforts.=0A> >>=
 >> > >>=A0 What are the real needs=0A> of the=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> com=
munity, if=0A> >> not some=0A> >> >> of the above?=0A> >> >> > >>=A0 What w=
ould you suggest?=A0=0A> How can=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> PLUG=0A> be a part=0A=
> >> of it?=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> Alan=0A> >> >> > >> >=
>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>> On=0A> Fri, Jul 31,=0A> >> 2009 at=0A> >> >> 1:34=
 PM,=0A> >> >> > >> Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com>=0A> >> >> > >> wrot=
e:=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=A0=0A> Alan,=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> =
>>>>>>=A0=0A> =A0 while=0A> >> I=0A> >> >> appreciate your post,=0A> >> >> =
> >> and anyone who is making a=0A> sincere=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> effor=
t to=0A> >> build=0A> >> >> community in=0A> >> >> > >> Phoenix... be warne=
d.=A0=0A> There are=0A> >> some=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> small=0A> >> grou=
ps who=0A> >> >> periodically=0A> >> >> > >> spawn off new 'communities'=0A=
> every=0A> >> month=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>> or=0A> so.=0A> >> Look=0A> >> >>=
 closely and you see=0A> >> >> > >> the same few people with=0A> reused=0A>=
 >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> marketing=0A> >> >> recipes.=A0 Lots of blog=0A> >> =
>> > >> and not too much community=0A> I'm=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> afraid=
.=0A> >> Their=0A> >> >> efforts amount to=0A> >> >> > >> some simple brand=
ing and=0A> putting up=0A> >> a=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> blog.=0A> >> Whil=
e=0A> >> >> these things are not=0A> >> >> > >> really particularily=0A> of=
fensive to=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> me, they do=0A> >> somewhat=0A> >> >> =
detract from=0A> >> >> > >> interest in the real needs=0A> of the=0A> >> >>=
 > >> >>>>>>=0A> community=0A> >> >> here.=A0 Some of these=0A> >> >> > >> =
people are just outright=0A> idiotic=0A> >> and=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> c=
annot deal=0A> >> with=0A> >> >> existing=0A> >> >> > >> structure and refu=
se to=0A> accept the=0A> >> history=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>> of=0A> efforts=0A=
> >> in the=0A> >> >> past.=A0 They=0A> >> >> > >> lack any articulation of=
=0A> their goals=0A> >> and=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> purpose.=0A> >> Often=
=0A> >> >> times they have=0A> >> >> > >> trouble organizing even=0A> small=
=0A> >> groups=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>> of=0A> 2 or 3.=0A> >> >> Dont forget w=
e've had=0A> >> >> > >> a tech incubator here.=A0=0A> Lets not=0A> >> >> > =
>> >>>>>>=0A> smack down=0A> >> sincere=0A> >> >> criticism in=0A> >> >> > =
>> favor of giddy blind=0A> optimism,=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> remember=0A=
> >> you can't=0A> >> >> improve without=0A> >> >> > >> criticism.=A0 I wou=
ld take=0A> these=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> people much=0A> >> more=0A> >> =
>> seriously if they=0A> >> >> > >> addressed the efforts of=0A> the past=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> and=0A> >> perhaps=0A> >> >> suggested how they =
are=0A> >> >> > >> going to improve on them,=0A> or=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=
=0A> perhaps=0A> >> indicate=0A> >> >> what has changed=0A> >> >> > >> that=
 will make them a=0A> success.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> Maybe=0A> >> seeki=
ng real=0A> >> >> political=0A> >> >> > >> support would gain some=0A> legi=
timacy.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=A0=0A> =A0 on=0A> >> th=
e=0A> >> >> positive side, I think=0A> >> >> > >> Phoenix will attract a lo=
t=0A> of=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> technology=0A> >> business=0A> >> >> due=
 to its=0A> >> >> > >> relative low cost and no=0A> doubt you=0A> >> will=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> start to=0A> >> see=0A> >> >> community=0A> >> >=
> > >> infrastructure grow.=A0 We=0A> are seeing=0A> >> some=0A> >> >> real=
=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> urban=0A> >> development=0A> >> >> happening in =
Phx=0A> >> >> > >> metro which has me very=0A> excited.=0A> >> I=0A> >> >> =
> >> >>>>>>=0A> think when=0A> >> the=0A> >> >> macroeconomic=0A> >> >> > >=
> problems are sorted out we=0A> will see=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> downtow=
n=0A> >> Phx=0A> >> >> bloom.=A0 Im hoping=0A> >> >> > >> that the average =
Arizonan=0A> gets=0A> >> involved=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>> in=0A> the=0A> >> p=
olitical=0A> >> >> process and make=0A> >> >> > >> sure that the corruption=
=0A> stays out=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>> of=0A> city and=0A> >> state=0A> >> >>=
 politics.=0A> >> >> > >>=A0 Coming from NY, Im=0A> recognizing a=0A> >> lo=
t=0A> >> >> of=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> positive=0A> >> development=0A> >>=
 >> trends in Phx=0A> >> >> > >> metro.=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>>=0A> >> >> > >=
> >>>>>>=A0=0A> -jmz=0A> >> >> > >> >>>>>=0A> >> >> > >>=0A> >> >>=0A> >>=
=0A> ---------------------------------------------------=0A> >> >> > >> >>>=
>>=0A> PLUG-discuss=0A> >> mailing=0A> >> >> list - PLUG-discuss at lists.plug=
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listinfo/plug-discuss=0A> >=0A> -------------------------------------------=
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