No subject
Sun Mar 29 18:49:28 MST 2009
list by programming language.
Another page, how to choose a wiki
http://www.iterating.com/productclasses/Wiki-Engines
Wiki Choice wizard http://www.wikimatrix.org/wizard.php
_____
From: plug-discuss-bounces at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
[mailto:plug-discuss-bounces at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Mike
Schwartz
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 4:15 PM
To: Main PLUG discussion list; Jason Hayes
Cc: Alan Dayley; Mike L Schwartz
Subject: Re: sortof OT: wiki software
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Chris Gehlker <canyonrat at mac.com> wrote:
On Jun 15, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Jason Hayes wrote:
> I know that this may be a Chevy vs. Ford, or which distro is the
> best distro
> kind of question, but I need to find a solid, easy to use wiki setup
> for people
> who may or may not be terribly tech-savvy.
>
> I will set it up (so that doesn't need to be part of the weighting),
> but I
> need to figure out which software will suit a group who is trying to
> set up a
> site with information that will help vest and educate new hires in our
> industry.
>
> Our budget is $0 (so I have to use OSS) and I am most comfortable
> working in a
> PHP/mySQL environment, so I have tentatively settled on two,
> MediaWiki and
> Moin Moin wiki
>
> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki
>
> http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinWiki
>
> Anyone out there have any experience with one or both of these.
> Anyone have
> another suggestion?
I had good luck with Instiki but I'm pretty comfortable with ruby.
<http://www.instiki.org/show/HomePage>
There are several editors to choose from including WYSIWYG ones.
Good luck!
--
Vegetarians eat Vegetables, Humanitarians frighten me
---------------------------------------------------
PLUG-discuss mailing list - [...]
I understand the concerns raised by joefleming, but I think to some
extent the issue of user training, or acceptance, & "getting started"
using it, might well be *helped* by using Mediawiki,
( http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki )
since it is used on wikipedia,
and hence, any experience of editing on wikipedia, that a given user
might already have, would be transferable and might serve to get over
the "writer's block" or "first time" [to use a certain wiki]
procrastination / hesitation.
ALSO, do not underestimate ! the extent to which a user's willingness
to learn
(( how to use the "wiki markup" language for MediaWiki ))
might be helped by the fact that, any knowledge that is gained, will be
useful "also" for [participating in] editing on wikipedia.
Ryan Rix (in his first comment) already mentioned the fact that
<< MediaWiki >>
is very widely used -- and hence I guess that is a good argument for
assuming that the maintenance of the software will probably continue
to occur, even if you yourself do not take the time and effort to report
and document the bugs, "if any" --
and, *never mind* the issue of whether you take the time and effort
[or are even qualified] to FIX the bugs!
However, the fact that MediaWiki is widely used by THOUSANDS of
people who make changes (edits) on wikipedia
(anything from a big re-write, to a minor tweak),
means that the user interface is well suited to being learned by newbies,
-- and, it is probably well suited to being *partially* learned, at first,
and you can then accomplish some simple edit
(like a Y/N reply to someone's idea/suggestion),
and then LATER, you can add to your knowledge, "gradually",
as time permits, and as the need arises.
Also, in R. Rix's second chime in on this, he said
> OO Writer can export mediawiki text ;)
which might also be interpreted as one of the "side effects" of that
data format being widely used. That is what happens when it is
widely used, and well known, AND it is defined by some kind of
clear published standard (like, I think the "reference implementation"
is also FLOSS), with no patents or trademarks etc., interfering with
the ability of software vendors (floss or otherwise) being able to provide
tools that support it / are compatible with it.
I have OOo on my computer, and I use it sometimes, but so far I have
not even thought about using it to do edits on wikipedia - or any wiki
that uses "mediawiki" wiki-text.
However, if an issue should arise, say, of trying to take some report (or
some extracted data) from a SQL database e.g., or something like that,
then it could prove to be quite useful to have the option of using
OO Writer to do some of the editing --
and then commanding that software to export some mediawiki text.
Then you could then put that in to the wiki, and everyone could
"have at it" with the usual way, of just using a browser (such as Firefox)
to make "everyday" common or garden variety (easy) changes.
Among the other things I think are cool about mediawiki, at least the
way it is set up on wikipedia, is that,
it automatically keeps track of a bunch of statistical info about every
change that is made -- so, one can
[1] do a diff, and see what changed, for a given "edit";
[2] see the date and time, when that edit occurred;
[3] see who made that edit;
and
[4] see the comments ("if any") that were entered on that
date at that time [2], by that person [3],
to try to "explain" the change [1], in English.
and, in some cases, there are other statistical slices of the same data,
e.g. you can go look at all of the contributions from a certain user.
Do all wiki's do the above? [1] through [4]? "I know noth ing"...
[quote thanks to the character "Schultz" on the old tv show 'Hogan's
Heroes']
[including pronouncing "noth ing" = 0 = {} as 2 words]
Finally, and this last point is an advantage of ANY web site
(set of web pages), wiki or not:
Even without having any of your own database tools to crawl through
and index your data, it is already possible to do searches through your
own data, (e.g.) by doing a google.com search, and making use of
the "site:" option.
That feature (the "site:" option) is so powerful that its name is a
misleading under-statement!
It "sounds" like you can just specify a certain domain name
(web site), and focus attention on that.
That is true, but it is not all.
((It slices! it dices! the original ad for the Ginsu knife
seems like an amateur...))
You can include *any URL substring* for hits you are interested in:
For example* you can do searches like
comma + site:http://docs.python.org/tutorial/
What possibilities!
*as I think I mentioned once (summer 2007?) to Alan Dayley.
--
Mike Schwartz
Glendale AZ
schwartz at acm.org
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<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2900.2180" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790384700-16062009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>From the wiki leader <A=20
href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_software">http://en.wik=
ipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wiki_software</A> list=20
by programming language.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790384700-16062009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790384700-16062009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Another page, how to choose a wiki <A=20
href=3D"http://www.iterating.com/productclasses/Wiki-Engines">http://www.=
iterating.com/productclasses/Wiki-Engines</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790384700-16062009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790384700-16062009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Wiki Choice wizard <A=20
href=3D"http://www.wikimatrix.org/wizard.php">http://www.wikimatrix.org/w=
izard.php</A></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790384700-16062009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN =
class=3D790384700-16062009></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790384700-16062009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D790384700-16062009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B>=20
plug-discuss-bounces at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us=20
[mailto:plug-discuss-bounces at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] <B>On Behalf Of =
</B>Mike=20
Schwartz<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, June 15, 2009 4:15 PM<BR><B>To:</B> =
Main PLUG=20
discussion list; Jason Hayes<BR><B>Cc:</B> Alan Dayley; Mike L=20
Schwartz<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: sortof OT: wiki =
software<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Chris Gehlker =
<SPAN=20
dir=3Dltr><<A =
href=3D"mailto:canyonrat at mac.com">canyonrat at mac.com</A>></SPAN>=20
wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc =
1px solid">
<DIV class=3Dim><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT><FONT face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT><BR>On Jun 15, 2009, at 9:15 AM, Jason =
Hayes=20
wrote:<BR><BR>> I know that this may be a Chevy vs. Ford, or =
which=20
distro is the<BR>> best distro<BR>> kind of question, but I need =
to find=20
a solid, easy to use wiki setup<BR>> for people<BR>> who may or =
may not=20
be terribly tech-savvy.<BR>><BR>> I will set it up (so that =
doesn't need=20
to be part of the weighting),<BR>> but I<BR>> need to figure out =
which=20
software will suit a group who is trying to<BR>> set up a<BR>> =
site with=20
information that will help vest and educate new hires in our<BR>>=20
industry.<BR>><BR>> Our budget is $0 (so I have to use OSS) and =
I am=20
most comfortable<BR>> working in a<BR>> PHP/mySQL environment, =
so I have=20
tentatively settled on two,<BR>> MediaWiki and<BR>> Moin Moin=20
wiki<BR>><BR>> <A =
href=3D"http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki"=20
=
target=3D_blank>http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki</A><BR>><BR>&g=
t; <A=20
href=3D"http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinWiki"=20
target=3D_blank>http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinWiki</A><BR>><BR>> =
Anyone out=20
there have any experience with one or both of these.<BR>> Anyone=20
have<BR>> another suggestion?<BR><BR></DIV>I had good luck with =
Instiki but=20
I'm pretty comfortable with ruby.<BR><<A=20
href=3D"http://www.instiki.org/show/HomePage"=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.instiki.org/show/HomePage</A>><BR>There =
are=20
several editors to choose from including WYSIWYG ones.<BR>Good=20
luck!<FONT color=3D#888888><BR>--<BR>Vegetarians eat Vegetables, =
Humanitarians=20
frighten me</FONT>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
=
class=3Dh5>---------------------------------------------------<BR>PLUG-di=
scuss=20
mailing list - [...]</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>I understand the concerns raised by joefleming, =
but I=20
think to some
<DIV>extent the issue of user training, or acceptance, & "getting=20
started" </DIV>
<DIV>using it, might well be *helped* by using Mediawiki, </DIV>
<DIV>( <A=20
href=3D"http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki">http://www.mediawiki.org=
/wiki/MediaWiki</A> ) </DIV>
<DIV>since it is used on wikipedia, </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>and hence, any experience of editing =
on wikipedia, that a=20
given user </DIV>
<DIV>might already have, would be transferable and might serve =
to get=20
over </DIV>
<DIV>the "writer's block" or "first time" [to use a certain=20
wiki] </DIV>
<DIV>procrastination / hesitation.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>ALSO, do not underestimate ! the extent to which a user's=20
willingness </DIV>
<DIV>to learn </DIV>
<DIV>(( how to use the "wiki markup" language for MediaWiki =
))</DIV>
<DIV>might be helped by the fact that, any knowledge that is=20
gained, will be </DIV>
<DIV>useful "also" for [participating in] editing=20
on wikipedia. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Ryan Rix (in his first comment) already mentioned the fact =
that </DIV>
<DIV><< MediaWiki >> <BR></DIV>
<DIV>is very widely used -- and hence I guess that is a good argument=20
for </DIV>
<DIV>assuming that the maintenance of the software will=20
probably continue </DIV>
<DIV>to occur, even if you yourself do not take the time and effort =
to=20
report </DIV>
<DIV>and document the bugs, "if any" -- </DIV>
<DIV>and, <SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">*never mind*</SPAN> the issue of =
whether you=20
take the time and effort </DIV>
<DIV>[or are even qualified] to FIX the bugs! </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>However, the fact that MediaWiki is widely used by=20
THOUSANDS of </DIV>
<DIV>people who make changes (edits) on wikipedia </DIV>
<DIV>(anything from a big re-write, to a minor tweak), </DIV>
<DIV>means that the user interface is well suited to being =
learned by=20
newbies, </DIV>
<DIV>-- and, it is probably well suited to being *partially* =
learned,=20
at first, </DIV>
<DIV>and you can then accomplish some simple edit </DIV>
<DIV>(like a Y/N reply to someone's idea/suggestion), </DIV>
<DIV>and then LATER, you can add to your knowledge, =
"gradually", </DIV>
<DIV>as time permits, and as the need arises. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Also, in R. Rix's second chime in on this, he said </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>> <SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">OO=20
Writer can export mediawiki text ;)</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>which might also be interpreted as one of the "side effects" of=20
that </DIV>
<DIV>data format being widely used. That=20
is what happens when it is </DIV>
<DIV>widely used, and well known, AND it is defined by some kind=20
of </DIV>
<DIV>clear published standard (like, I think the "reference=20
implementation" </DIV>
<DIV>is also FLOSS), with no patents or trademarks etc., interfering=20
with </DIV>
<DIV>the ability of software vendors (floss or =
otherwise) being able=20
to provide </DIV>
<DIV>tools that support it / are compatible with =
it. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I have OOo on my computer, and I use it sometimes, but so far =
I=20
have </DIV>
<DIV>not even thought about using it to do =
edits on wikipedia -=20
or any wiki </DIV>
<DIV>that uses "<SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse">mediawiki" =
wiki-text. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">However, if=20
an issue should arise, say, of trying to take some report =
(or </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">some=20
extracted data) from a SQL database e.g., or something like=20
that, </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">then it=20
could prove to be quite useful to have the option of=20
using </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">OO Writer to=20
do some of the editing -- </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">and=20
then commanding that software to export some=20
mediawiki text. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">Then you=20
could then put that in to the wiki, and=20
everyone could </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">"have at=20
it" with the usual way, of just using a browser (such as=20
Firefox) </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">to make=20
"everyday" common or garden variety (easy) =
changes. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">Among the=20
other things I think are cool about mediawiki, at least=20
the </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse">way it is=20
set up on <SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate">wikipedia, is=20
that, </SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>it automatically keeps track of a bunch of statistical info about=20
every </DIV>
<DIV>change that is made -- so, one can </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>[1] do a diff, and see what changed, for a given=20
"edit"; </DIV>
<DIV>[2] see the date and time, when that edit =
occurred; </DIV>
<DIV>[3] see who made that edit; <BR></DIV>
<DIV>and </DIV>
<DIV>[4] see the comments ("if any") that were entered on=20
that <BR></DIV>
<DIV> date at that time [2], by that person=20
[3], </DIV>
<DIV> to try to "explain" the change=20
[1], in English. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>and, in some cases, there are other statistical slices of the same=20
data, </DIV>
<DIV>e.g. you can go look at all of the contributions from a certain=20
user. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse"><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate">
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse"><SPAN=20
class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: separate">Do all =
wiki's do the=20
above? [1] through [4]? "I know noth ing"...</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>[quote thanks to the character "Schultz" on the old tv show =
'Hogan's=20
Heroes'] </DIV>
<DIV>[including pronouncing "noth ing" =3D 0 =3D {} as 2=20
words] </DIV></SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Finally, and this last point is an advantage of ANY web =
site </DIV>
<DIV>(set of web pages), wiki or not: </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Even without having any of your own database tools to=20
crawl through</DIV>
<DIV>and index your data, it is already possible to do =
searches=20
through your </DIV>
<DIV>own data, (e.g.) by doing a <A =
href=3D"http://google.com">google.com</A>=20
search, and making use of </DIV>
<DIV>the "site:" option.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>That feature (the <SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">"site:" </SPAN>option) is so powerful that =
its name is=20
a </DIV>
<DIV>misleading under-statement! </DIV>
<DIV>It <SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: =
bold">"sounds"</SPAN>=20
like you can just specify a certain domain name </DIV>
<DIV>(web site), and focus attention on that. </DIV>
<DIV>That is true, but it is not all. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>((It slices! it dices! the original ad for the Ginsu=20
knife </DIV>
<DIV> seems like an amateur...))</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>You can include *any URL substring* for hits =
you are=20
interested in: </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>For example* you can do searches like </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: Arial; WHITE-SPACE: pre; BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse; webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 2px; =
webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 2px"> comma=20
+ site:<A=20
href=3D"http://docs.python.org/tutorial/">http://docs.python.org/tutorial=
/</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: large">What=20
possibilities!</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>*as I think I mentioned once (summer 2007?) to Alan=20
Dayley. </DIV></DIV>
<DIV>-- <BR><SPAN class=3DApple-style-span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
large">Mike Schwartz=20
</SPAN><BR>Glendale AZ <BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:schwartz at acm.org">schwartz at acm.org</A><BR></DIV></BODY></H=
TML>
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