Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX
Lyle Tuttle
L.tuttle at cox.net
Sun Aug 2 15:54:04 MST 2009
Ask yourself:
What is the incentive for government (and govt employees) to do "better"?
They can only restrict and take......any money they "give" came from
someone else, and they certainly too their "commission" before they
sent it back......
lyle
At 02:51 PM 8/2/2009, you wrote:
>I think anytime government gets involved in anything it is bad. If
>the government is going to be in charge of giving grants to business
>development groups only the friends of government will get the grants.
>
>
>We agree on one thing. Accurate reporting is needed. That is what
>is missing.
>
>
>------------------------
>Keith Smith
>
>
>--- On Sun, 8/2/09, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX
> > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> > Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 2:41 PM
> > On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 2:21 PM, keith
> > smith<klsmith2020 at yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > With the exception of labor law violations what you
> > have outlined has to do with business practices.
> > >
> > > How can government improve these problems?
> >
> > I think that the technology development people need
> > clear
> > representation in state govt. You certainly have this
> > in CA, and the
> > political support is funneled through professional
> > orgs. As was
> > pointed out the professional orgs are somewhat lacking
> > here- perhaps
> > this warrants a closer look. Perhaps we need to take
> > a look at who it
> > is that runs them. In my view the only way to make a
> > durable org is
> > direct support by state or city govt. Economic
> > development in AZ is
> > typically modeled as low cost industrial investment + cheap
> > labor =
> > $$$$! Im not suggesting doing away with it, but it
> > has expanded
> > enough to antagonize other kinds of development. I
> > dont think cheap
> > labor should come at the cost of University. This is
> > the 21st
> > century- cast iron widgets are becoming cheaper and
> > cheaper.
> >
> > Again just to clarify, I have nothing against
> > Gangplank. But we
> > have to be accurate when we talk about it. It's not
> > the Kleiner
> > Perkins of Arizona. If we allow that perception to
> > persist, AZ will
> > gain a reputation as a fraud. Secondly I would
> > appreciate it if some
> > of the protagonists of these groups were a bit clearer
> > about their
> > identity. Some of these groups conjure up images of
> > those cheapo
> > chinese buffets that change their names every few months.
> >
> > Keith I dont have a business plan... but we need to
> > start by
> > accurately reporting on the state of things. Then we
> > can make the
> > right decisions.
> >
> > -jmz
> >
> > >
> > > ------------------------
> > > Keith Smith
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Michael Butash <michael at butash.net>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: Michael Butash <michael at butash.net>
> > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in
> > PHX
> > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:31 PM
> > >> Well, largely I agree with Joshua's
> > >> assessment, sounds like his
> > >> experience is much like mine...
> > >>
> > >> I moved to the Bay area in 99, worked tech there
> > for 2
> > >> years, moved back
> > >> when things imploded in 01. Since being back
> > versed
> > >> with tech skill and
> > >> corporate politics, I've only ever been able to
> > describe
> > >> most business
> > >> in Arizona as bass-ackward and/or hot-air
> > propelled.
> > >> Largely I note
> > >> Arizona seems to encourage abuse of fair labor
> > standards
> > >> act for
> > >> salaried employees, resulting in a lot of
> > "sweatshop IT"
> > >> mentality in
> > >> corporations here. Funny I heard mentioned
> > godaddy
> > >> and 2wire, as they
> > >> tend to be some of the biggest offenders of
> > running said
> > >> sweat shops.
> > >> Give your buddy 6 months at the Daddy to acclimate
> > to them
> > >> and ask what
> > >> he thinks. :)
> > >>
> > >> When I did move back to AZ, I'd joined some
> > professional
> > >> "networking"
> > >> groups like AZIPA that led to not much more than
> > pedantic
> > >> bickering and
> > >> posturing, not much at all helpful for business
> > or
> > >> technology
> > >> opportunities. Ultimately I saw it splinter,
> > >> fracture, and a lot of
> > >> people simply lose interest because of it,
> > including
> > >> myself. From that
> > >> I found being an island unto yourself isn't always
> > a bad
> > >> thing, simply
> > >> networking with people I met through work. Only
> > >> recently have I
> > >> somewhat opened up to professional networking
> > though
> > >> LinkedIn and user
> > >> groups like this one, but really just to keep
> > touch with
> > >> associates and
> > >> clients of mine. I'm still gun shy on the
> > rest...
> > >>
> > >> Since being back in AZ, I've worked for a lot of
> > IT shops
> > >> and been
> > >> exposed to a lot of people shifting between jobs,
> > finding
> > >> that more or
> > >> less most corporate politics surrounding IT are
> > the same,
> > >> and not
> > >> typically good. I worked 3 years at GoDaddy
> > prior and
> > >> through massive
> > >> growth, while one of my best work experiences
> > (building
> > >> cool/expensive
> > >> stuff), it was also one of the worst (meat
> > grinder
> > >> stressful workplace,
> > >> implosive politics). GD and frankly a lot of
> > >> companies I've been
> > >> exposed to are more alike than not, typically
> > because of
> > >> clueless upper
> > >> management and general lack of ethics, but somehow
> > forge
> > >> along despite
> > >> themselves. Closest analogy I can equated it to
> > >> universally is "the
> > >> blind leading the blind", where self-serving
> > politics,
> > >> combined with
> > >> poor technological leadership, and now volatile
> > economics
> > >> eventually
> > >> dictate perspective reasoning of how things
> > work. Bad
> > >> things tend to
> > >> result, and often...
> > >>
> > >> The difference between working in the Bay Area and
> > in
> > >> Arizona is stark.
> > >> Generally I found a lot better talent there, with
> > a
> > >> stronger likeliness
> > >> to embrace technology, and be passionate about
> > their
> > >> work. Here there's
> > >> just a lot of people graduating DeVry, UoP, WIU,
> > and other
> > >> "schools"
> > >> cranking out mediocre certified/degreed
> > cannon-fodder for
> > >> the local IT
> > >> shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream job.
> > It's
> > >> almost scary
> > >> walking into new customer businesses consulting
> > anymore,
> > >> pretty safe to
> > >> assume someone knows nothing than anything about
> > the tech
> > >> they support.
> > >> While I did have this too in the Bay Area, the
> > clueless
> > >> admin syndrome
> > >> is a heck of a lot more prevalent here. Work
> > ethics
> > >> tend to be crappier
> > >> too. I dunno, something in the water perhaps...
> > >>
> > >> Look around at the sheer number of call centers
> > for
> > >> businesses out of
> > >> state we have here, and that should tell you
> > >> something. A lot of
> > >> low-pay, mediocre jobs, and a career path to
> > become a
> > >> cattle herder of
> > >> these call centers, maybe even move into middle
> > management
> > >> if you're
> > >> lucky. Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wire, CableOne,
> > Cox,
> > >> ETelecare, etc
> > >> simply rotate people in and out like underwear,
> > but they're
> > >> the armpits
> > >> that fund a lot of the IT business around town as
> > well, as
> > >> someone's got
> > >> to support all the infrastructure to take those
> > >> calls. Godaddy's call
> > >> centers are slightly different because they
> > actually MAKE
> > >> them money, so
> > >> they tend to commission merit pay and lavish gifts
> > readily
> > >> upon them to
> > >> keep everyone happy, but it's still at the root
> > just
> > >> another sweatshop
> > >> call center. Other call centers are much less
> > >> forgiving...
> > >>
> > >> Supporting IT shops around call centers tends to
> > be a
> > >> double-edged
> > >> sword, especially when the call center slave
> > mentality
> > >> pervades into the
> > >> how companies deal with or even drive IT folk.
> > Even
> > >> non-call-centers
> > >> seem to act this way locally more commonly than
> > not, just
> > >> because they
> > >> can, and it's the atmosphere people are becoming
> > acclimated
> > >> to. As
> > >> people migrate jobs, I think ultimately this
> > pervasive
> > >> mentality results
> > >> in excessive overwork and general dissatisfaction,
> > causing
> > >> a
> > >> trickle-down effect into other work places.
> > >>
> > >> These disinterested/jaded/overworked/underpaid
> > workers now
> > >> head out into
> > >> other IT shops to maintain infrastructure over
> > their head
> > >> and
> > >> undermanned, meaning things degrade eventually
> > even if once
> > >> deployed
> > >> properly. I'm not at all certain if this is just
> > a
> > >> local thing, or the
> > >> new national standard at work, but it seems much
> > more
> > >> pervasive here
> > >> than certain other localities I work with.
> > >> Professional ethics are hard
> > >> to find these days in general with hard times
> > indeed.
> > >> Anyone else of
> > >> hiring capacity notice try hiring *good* people
> > these
> > >> days? Pretty
> > >> difficult if you ask me.
> > >>
> > >> Overall, working in the tech field here for the
> > past 8
> > >> years in a more
> > >> senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I want to
> > remain in AZ
> > >> long-term.
> > >> As I get older, my flame to set upon the world
> > diminishes,
> > >> I'll probably
> > >> just wander until I feel comfortable for a bit.
> > I
> > >> love AZ, but I'm
> > >> fairly disparaged by the business opportunities
> > here after
> > >> all these
> > >> years...
> > >>
> > >> So enough hot-air of my own, take it as you will,
> > but
> > >> that's my take on
> > >> things. Feel free to disagree. :)
> > >>
> > >> Good discussion indeed, interesting to hear
> > other's
> > >> opinions on the
> > >> matter.
> > >>
> > >> -mb
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua Zeidner
> > wrote:
> > >> > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith
> > smith<klsmith2020 at yahoo.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I think what is really missing from this
> > equation
> > >> is mentoring and training.
> > >> >
> > >> > what I would like to see is some real
> > >> support from AZ government to
> > >> > help make tech companies feel welcome here.
> > This
> > >> means:
> > >> >
> > >> > 1) making the valley a good place not
> > >> only to build a company but to
> > >> > build a *career*. this means buy in from
> > both
> > >> sides of the equation.
> > >> > I would like to see a bit more address at
> > lower
> > >> capital levels, but
> > >> > that may prove to be difficult. It seems
> > that
> > >> most existing concepts
> > >> > are kind of stuck in the industrial model,
> > where you
> > >> build a factory
> > >> > in a place with low taxes and hire low wage
> > workers,
> > >> but technology
> > >> > requires high wage workers who demand a good
> > thriving
> > >> job market. The
> > >> > needs are quite different. The biggest
> > issue
> > >> with starting a company
> > >> > out here is finding people. Where are all
> > the
> > >> people? in CA.
> > >> > because it has a good job market. If we
> > can
> > >> outsource to India, we
> > >> > sure as hell can outsource to Arizona.
> > >> >
> > >> > 2) setting up low cost legal
> > >> structure and as you say mentoring to
> > >> > really help stimulate technology
> > development.
> > >> We've seen (at least
> > >> > nominal) efforts in the past. Why did they
> > >> fail? This means real and
> > >> > adequate assistance in bringing concepts to
> > production
> > >> and market. A
> > >> > small investment in this area will yield
> > returns in
> > >> tax base and
> > >> > property value by a factor of hundreds.
> > Arizona
> > >> has the potential to
> > >> > pick up a lot of this commercial activity
> > because
> > >> California is
> > >> > currently set to become a tax strapped
> > nightmare state
> > >> to build your
> > >> > business. If AZ fails to see the
> > opportunity
> > >> here, we will lose out
> > >> > big time. Currently the budget proceedings
> > are
> > >> still in gridlock.
> > >> >
> > >> > the mayor of Phoenix seems to have
> > >> the right idea, he was suggesting
> > >> > recently a green technology center near Phx
> > >> center. I think thats the
> > >> > direction AZ needs to go. -jmz
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I like the idea that folks are getting
> > together
> > >> to network. This is a really cool idea. Even
> > for
> > >> non-technical stuff like finding out how people
> > deal with
> > >> customers, contracting, book-keeping, ETC.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > ------------------------
> > >> > > Keith Smith
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner
> > <jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > >> > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur
> > Stuff to
> > >> do in PHX
> > >> > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list"
> > <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> > >> > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08
> > PM
> > >> > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM,
> > >> > >> Alan Dayley<alandd at consultpros.com>
> > >> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >> > Joshua,
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > I put all your replies together
> > in one
> > >> long document
> > >> > >> and reread them.
> > >> > >> > I am still confused a bit.
> > >> Enlightenment via email
> > >> > >> rarely occurs.
> > >> > >> > However, I really want to
> > understand
> > >> your position in
> > >> > >> this discussion.
> > >> > >> > Let me summarize what I
> > understand
> > >> from your
> > >> > >> replies.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of
> > your
> > >> comments]---
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - There is a small group or
> > groups of
> > >> people who keep
> > >> > >> spinning off
> > >> > >> > communities using tired
> > marketing
> > >> techniques. This
> > >> > >> results in blogs
> > >> > >> > but not true communities.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - Some of these people cannot
> > deal with
> > >> existing
> > >> > >> structure and the
> > >> > >> > efforts of the past.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - These weak attempts do not
> > articulate
> > >> goals or
> > >> > >> purpose well, if at all.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - We must honestly look at
> > criticism to
> > >> learn and
> > >> > >> improve.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - These weak people need to
> > address the
> > >> efforts of the
> > >> > >> past and
> > >> > >> > provide suggestions on how they
> > can be
> > >> improved upon.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - Getting political support
> > will provide
> > >> legitimacy to
> > >> > >> their efforts.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - Phoenix will attract
> > technology
> > >> businesses because
> > >> > >> of the relative
> > >> > >> > low cost and this will help
> > improve
> > >> things.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - You have first hand
> > experiences of
> > >> weak, marketing
> > >> > >> fronted,
> > >> > >> > community building efforts.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have
> > grand ideas
> > >> but get
> > >> > >> nowhere with them
> > >> > >> > because they are not real
> > businesses.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - People at a co-working
> > location or
> > >> coffee shop will
> > >> > >> not help you
> > >> > >> > with your business unless you
> > pay them.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - Most people at co-working
> > started
> > >> their one person
> > >> > >> business after
> > >> > >> > being laid-off and are not
> > serious about
> > >> it. They
> > >> > >> are really just
> > >> > >> > looking for the next full time
> > >> gig. This will get in
> > >> > >> your way if you
> > >> > >> > have real business work to do.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - We must look truthfully at
> > this issue
> > >> if we are to
> > >> > >> make progress.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > - There are no serious
> > incubators and
> > >> entrepreneurial
> > >> > >> meetups in
> > >> > >> > Phoenix. No announcements on
> > VC
> > >> funding of companies
> > >> > >> so it's not
> > >> > >> > really entrepreneurial growth.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of
> > your
> > >> comments]---
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > I see validity in every one of
> > these
> > >> comments. I
> > >> > >> also think many of
> > >> > >> > them can be balanced by the
> > other point
> > >> of view. I
> > >> > >> still have
> > >> > >> > questions, if I may ask, before
> > I state
> > >> too much of my
> > >> > >> own thinking.
> > >> > >> > I want to learn more about
> > your
> > >> thinking.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > 1. What does "deal with
> > existing
> > >> structure" mean?
> > >> > >> This confuses me,
> > >> > >> > not know what structure you are
> > talking
> > >> about.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Many user groups have been
> > >> formed and continue to
> > >> > >> exist... how is
> > >> > >> <groupX> different? other
> > than
> > >> its led by
> > >> > >> person Y? I mean dealing
> > >> > >> with some of these groups I feel
> > like Im back
> > >> to age 8
> > >> > >> trying to gain
> > >> > >> admittance into the neighborhood
> > >> treehouse. Perhaps I
> > >> > >> should spend
> > >> > >> more time drinking beer with these
> > >> people? Seeing the
> > >> > >> same small
> > >> > >> group churning out 'communities' is
> > at first
> > >> funny, then
> > >> > >> annoying. I
> > >> > >> just see a real lack of serious
> > intent, and
> > >> unless that is
> > >> > >> noted
> > >> > >> publicly, it makes all of us look
> > bad.
> > >> I really dont
> > >> > >> think Im being
> > >> > >> destructive or malicious here, Im
> > pointing
> > >> out some valid
> > >> > >> observations.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > 2. To what efforts of the past
> > are you
> > >> referring? I
> > >> > >> want to
> > >> > >> > understand the size and nature
> > of
> > >> efforts to creating
> > >> > >> a community that
> > >> > >> > you feel were legitimate but
> > perhaps did
> > >> not work as
> > >> > >> planned.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> I remember when I first came
> > >> to AZ that there was an
> > >> > >> tech
> > >> > >> incubator... what happened to it?
> > >> Which
> > >> > >> political agents currently
> > >> > >> support technology development in
> > the
> > >> valley? what do
> > >> > >> they think
> > >> > >> about your org? these things are
> > pretty
> > >> basic...
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > 3. What political support is
> > >> needed? You mean
> > >> > >> government funding of
> > >> > >> > events or startups or just
> > verbal
> > >> support or what?
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> I wouldn't expect funding,
> > >> but it would be good to
> > >> > >> see some
> > >> > >> political buy in. Lack of just
> > supports
> > >> my opinions,
> > >> > >> that its really
> > >> > >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor
> > >> organization.
> > >> > >> Without any good
> > >> > >> signposts, all this will produce are
> > people
> > >> who get jaded
> > >> > >> and
> > >> > >> disaffected with regards to this
> > >> location. If you had
> > >> > >> something
> > >> > >> together I doubt that a good
> > politician would
> > >> turn you
> > >> > >> down.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem
> > for
> > >> someone who is
> > >> > >> laid-off to have
> > >> > >> > grand ideas, talk about them
> > and they
> > >> never come to
> > >> > >> be?
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Its not. As I said, I
> > >> don't find any of these
> > >> > >> things highly
> > >> > >> offensive- but like you I am free to
> > express
> > >> myself.
> > >> > >> Sorry if its not
> > >> > >> filled with abundant exaltations.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that
> > people
> > >> might help each
> > >> > >> other in business
> > >> > >> > efforts? Isn't strengthening
> > and
> > >> creating such a
> > >> > >> culture a good idea
> > >> > >> > or should such a goal not be
> > pursued
> > >> because it is not
> > >> > >> practically
> > >> > >> > possible?
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> sure. good thread
> > >> btw. -jmz
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > Alan
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20
> > PM, Joshua
> > >> Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > >> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >> >> another great one:
> > >> > >> >>
> > >> > >> >> "OK, my question stands.
> > Where are
> > >> the incubators,
> > >> > >> the "bootstrap"
> > >> > >> >> seminars, the serious
> > >> entrepreneurial meetups in
> > >> > >> Phoenix??? (crickets
> > >> > >> >> chirping). Phoenix just
> > ain't
> > >> happening as a
> > >> > >> serious place where
> > >> > >> >> serious people are doing
> > serious
> > >> things. No one
> > >> > >> wants it badly enough
> > >> > >> >> here. This paper should be
> > having at
> > >> least one
> > >> > >> article a week on a new
> > >> > >> >> startup and the VC firm who
> > funded
> > >> it.
> > >> > >> Helloooo????? is anybody out
> > >> > >> >> there...."
> > >> > >> >>
> > >> > >> >> a better way to phrase
> > this: we need
> > >> to stop
> > >> > >> pretending these
> > >> > >> >> whimsical efforts churned
> > out by
> > >> local
> > >> > >> self-employed marketing experts
> > >> > >> >> are sufficient. They are
> > >> not. We should be
> > >> > >> asking the hard
> > >> > >> >> questions, not playing
> > games.
> > >> > >> >>
> > >> > >> >> -jmz
> > >> > >> >>
> > >> > >> >>
> > >> > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at
> > 4:04 PM,
> > >> Joshua
> > >> > >> Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > >> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >> >>> another point,
> > honestly
> > >> reading through some
> > >> > >> of the criticisms on
> > >> > >> >>> azcentral and being of
> > the cafe
> > >> dwelling creed
> > >> > >> myself, I'd have to say
> > >> > >> >>> that many of those
> > points are
> > >> accurate. I've
> > >> > >> heard lots of
> > >> > >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with
> > big ideas
> > >> around here who
> > >> > >> never get anywhere with
> > >> > >> >>> them. Sorry, but a
> > word
> > >> press template
> > >> > >> doesn't make you an
> > >> > >> >>> entrepreneur.
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>> "These are the same
> > people
> > >> you see at
> > >> > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any
> > >> > >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot,
> > they are
> > >> not
> > >> > >> entrepreneurs they are attention
> > >> > >> >>> (inappropriate term)."
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>> "Many of the
> > Co-Worker
> > >> location founders
> > >> > >> tout other people to
> > >> > >> >>> collaborate with and
> > who can
> > >> "compensate for
> > >> > >> your deficiencies". Do
> > >> > >> >>> you really believe
> > someone that
> > >> you are not
> > >> > >> paying as an employee is
> > >> > >> >>> going to somehow
> > compensate for
> > >> your
> > >> > >> deficiencies and make your
> > >> > >> >>> business better? That
> > kind of
> > >> help doesn't
> > >> > >> come without a price."
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>> oh so true...
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>> "You are more likely
> > to
> > >> get a bunch of
> > >> > >> people chatting to you over
> > >> > >> >>> your "work" so you wont
> > be
> > >> concentrating as
> > >> > >> you should to focus on
> > >> > >> >>> your business. Most of
> > these
> > >> people started
> > >> > >> businesses after being
> > >> > >> >>> laid off. They are
> > searching for
> > >> a new job and
> > >> > >> they aren't really
> > >> > >> >>> serious about their
> > "businesses"
> > >> so how do you
> > >> > >> expect them to give you
> > >> > >> >>> valuable, serious
> > advice. Are
> > >> these the kind
> > >> > >> of people you need to
> > >> > >> >>> compensate for your
> > >> deficiencies? A bunch of
> > >> > >> people half-as running
> > >> > >> >>> their "business" while
> > searching
> > >> for a real
> > >> > >> job and bothering you with
> > >> > >> >>> their expertise that
> > got them
> > >> laid off in the
> > >> > >> first place."
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>> oh so so true...
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>> I would be willing to
> > bet
> > >> the commenter
> > >> > >> above is an tried and true
> > >> > >> >>> successful
> > entrepreneur.
> > >> Perhaps the reason
> > >> > >> I am so skeptical is
> > >> > >> >>> because I know these
> > kind of
> > >> people so well.
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>> sorry I really wish
> > I
> > >> could be more
> > >> > >> supportive... but : truth is
> > >> > >> >>> the foundation of
> > progress.
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>> -jmz
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at
> > 3:28 PM,
> > >> Joshua
> > >> > >> Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > >> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >> >>>> Alan,
> > >> > >> >>>>
> > >> > >> >>>> Wish I had
> > time
> > >> to respond to all
> > >> > >> these points right now, not sure
> > >> > >> >>>> you read me the way
> > I would
> > >> prefer
> > >> > >> however. Its not so grave a
> > >> > >> >>>> warning, just
> > getting the
> > >> word out on my
> > >> > >> first hand experiences. Im
> > >> > >> >>>> just one of many-
> > but
> > >> hopefully an
> > >> > >> impartial observer and someone
> > >> > >> >>>> genuinely concerned
> > for AZ.
> > >> > >> >>>>
> > >> > >> >>>> all the best,
> > jmz
> > >> > >> >>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>
> > >> > >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31,
> > 2009 at 3:12
> > >> PM, Alan
> > >> > >> Dayley<alandd at consultpros.com>
> > >> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >> >>>>> Josh,
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> I feel
> > warned. And
> > >> I don't
> > >> > >> understand the reason for such a
> > strong
> > >> warning.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> There are
> > people in
> > >> every industry,
> > >> > >> government or community who wish
> > >> > >> >>>>> to fleece
> > their
> > >> "community" for their
> > >> > >> own profit instead of mutual
> > >> > >> >>>>> benefit. The
> > trick
> > >> is to find the
> > >> > >> positive people and ignore the
> > >> > >> >>>>> rest. Apply
> > the
> > >> same filter with
> > >> > >> every event, group or blogger in
> > the
> > >> > >> >>>>> lists and links
> > I
> > >> provided. I don't
> > >> > >> expect bloggers or techies to be
> > >> > >> >>>>> any different,
> > as if
> > >> being techie
> > >> > >> makes one a saint.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> Some of those
> > bloggers
> > >> are purely
> > >> > >> commercial or completely neglected,
> > >> > >> >>>>> I'm sure.
> > Some of
> > >> the groups or
> > >> > >> events or sites listed are lousy,
> > >> > >> >>>>> boring or poor
> > marketing
> > >> excuses to
> > >> > >> sell something. Some are not out
> > >> > >> >>>>> to create
> > community but
> > >> to build a
> > >> > >> "kingdom" for their own benefit.
> > >> > >> >>>>> They are the
> > duds.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> Let's look at a
> > few
> > >> positives:
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> - Read the
> > Gangplank
> > >> Manifesto on
> > >> > >> their home page at
> > >> > >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com. That looks like
> > >> > >> a great articulation of their
> > >> > >> >>>>> goals and
> > purpose.
> > >> Ones I strongly
> > >> > >> support!
> > >> > >> >>>>> -- Read how
> > the
> > >> manifesto came to be
> > >> > >> on Derek's blog at
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> - Gangplank has
> > hosted
> > >> or is hosting:
> > >> > >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a
> > day long
> > >> conference on
> > >> > >> developing for phones like
> > >> > >> >>>>> iPhone or
> > Android
> > >> > >> >>>>> -- Gangplank
> > Jr. - a 2-3
> > >> hour Saturday
> > >> > >> event for kids 5-15 to learn
> > >> > >> >>>>> programming
> > concepts
> > >> > >> >>>>> -- Wordpress
> > training
> > >> classes for
> > >> > >> minimal cost or no-cost for
> > non-profit orgs
> > >> > >> >>>>> -- Laid Off
> > Camp - a day
> > >> long
> > >> > >> conference on job searching and
> > >> entreprenuership
> > >> > >> >>>>> -- Barcamp
> > Pheonix - a
> > >> day long
> > >> > >> conference on software development
> > >> > >> >>>>> -- TEDx night -
> > Watch
> > >> ted.com videos
> > >> > >> and discuss them
> > >> > >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix
> > - a night
> > >> of open mic
> > >> > >> music and entertainment
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on
> June 13th and
> > >> > >> nearly
> > >> > >> >>>>> filled DeVry's
> > Phoenix
> > >> campus with
> > >> > >> developers talking about code or
> > >> > >> >>>>> making code.
> > Free
> > >> lunch of pizza and
> > >> > >> sub sandwiches was provided too.
> > >> > >> >>>>> Put together
> > by
> > >> volunteers.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> - If you're
> > into
> > >> Microsoft based
> > >> > >> development tech, the people who
> > >> > >> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual
> all-day event at
> > >> > >> >>>>> venues like the
> > Orphium
> > >> Theater and at
> > >> > >> no cost to attendees. Fine,
> > >> > >> >>>>> it's marketing
> > for MS
> > >> but it's put on
> > >> > >> by volunteers here in the valley
> > >> > >> >>>>> and a great way
> > for
> > >> people to learn
> > >> > >> about things that improve their
> > >> > >> >>>>> career skills.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx)
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> - The local
> > Ruby On
> > >> Rails group has
> > >> > >> monthly meetings with around 30
> > >> > >> >>>>> regularly in
> > >> attendance.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> - The Java
> > group is also
> > >> well attended
> > >> > >> every month.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in
> November, put on
> > >> > >> by
> > >> > >> >>>>> voluteers at no
> > cost
> > >> (donation
> > >> > >> requested) to attendees. Had about
> > 350
> > >> > >> >>>>> people attend
> > last year
> > >> (if I recall)
> > >> > >> for two days of conference.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in
> > >> > >> November
> > >> > >> >>>>> for the forth
> > >> year. This one costs
> > >> > >> $100+ but should be as well
> > >> > >> >>>>> attended as
> > last year
> > >> with 200+
> > >> > >> people. Funded and organized in
> > part
> > >> > >> >>>>> by a local
> > venture
> > >> capital group.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held
> a year ago
> > >> with
> > >> > >> a
> > >> > >> >>>>> little over 100
> > in
> > >> attendance and has
> > >> > >> grown to fill the 600 seat
> > >> > >> >>>>> Theather at
> > Tempe Center
> > >> for the Arts
> > >> > >> back in June. The connections
> > >> > >> >>>>> made there live
> > well
> > >> past the event.
> > >> > >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city
> > council
> > >> member and the
> > >> > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last
> > >> > >> >>>>> time, though he
> > was a
> > >> bit silly trying
> > >> > >> to be Tempe exclusive. That
> > >> > >> >>>>> seems to be at
> > least
> > >> verbal political
> > >> > >> support.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> - The second
> > ABLEConf on
> > >> FS/OSS is
> > >> > >> being planned for October and
> > >> > >> >>>>> should be
> > better than
> > >> last year. (Go
> > >> > >> Hans and team!)
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> I'm not going
> > to go on,
> > >> though I could
> > >> > >> point out several purely social
> > >> > >> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's
> east and west
> > >> > >> valley
> > >> > >> >>>>> analogs, East
> > Valley
> > >> Thursday Morning
> > >> > >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch,
> > >> > >> >>>>> South Valley
> > Geek Meet
> > >> and Eat and
> > >> > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch
> > >> > >> >>>>> presentations
> > every
> > >> Wednesday.
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> Now, having
> > said all of
> > >> that "giddy
> > >> > >> blind optimism," I'd like to
> > >> > >> >>>>> understand how
> > the above
> > >> does not
> > >> > >> address the efforts of the past or
> > >> > >> >>>>> provide
> > improvement over
> > >> past efforts.
> > >> > >> What are the real needs of the
> > >> > >> >>>>> community, if
> > not some
> > >> of the above?
> > >> > >> What would you suggest? How can
> > >> > >> >>>>> PLUG be a part
> > of it?
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> Alan
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31,
> > 2009 at
> > >> 1:34 PM,
> > >> > >> Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > >> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >> >>>>>> Alan,
> > >> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>>> while
> > I
> > >> appreciate your post,
> > >> > >> and anyone who is making a sincere
> > >> > >> >>>>>> effort to
> > build
> > >> community in
> > >> > >> Phoenix... be warned. There are
> > some
> > >> > >> >>>>>> small
> > groups who
> > >> periodically
> > >> > >> spawn off new 'communities' every
> > month
> > >> > >> >>>>>> or so.
> > Look
> > >> closely and you see
> > >> > >> the same few people with reused
> > >> > >> >>>>>> marketing
> > >> recipes. Lots of blog
> > >> > >> and not too much community I'm
> > >> > >> >>>>>> afraid.
> > Their
> > >> efforts amount to
> > >> > >> some simple branding and putting up
> > a
> > >> > >> >>>>>> blog.
> > While
> > >> these things are not
> > >> > >> really particularily offensive to
> > >> > >> >>>>>> me, they do
> > somewhat
> > >> detract from
> > >> > >> interest in the real needs of the
> > >> > >> >>>>>> community
> > >> here. Some of these
> > >> > >> people are just outright idiotic
> > and
> > >> > >> >>>>>> cannot deal
> > with
> > >> existing
> > >> > >> structure and refuse to accept the
> > history
> > >> > >> >>>>>> of efforts
> > in the
> > >> past. They
> > >> > >> lack any articulation of their goals
> > and
> > >> > >> >>>>>> purpose.
> > Often
> > >> times they have
> > >> > >> trouble organizing even small
> > groups
> > >> > >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3.
> > >> Dont forget we've had
> > >> > >> a tech incubator here. Lets not
> > >> > >> >>>>>> smack down
> > sincere
> > >> criticism in
> > >> > >> favor of giddy blind optimism,
> > >> > >> >>>>>> remember
> > you can't
> > >> improve without
> > >> > >> criticism. I would take these
> > >> > >> >>>>>> people much
> > more
> > >> seriously if they
> > >> > >> addressed the efforts of the past
> > >> > >> >>>>>> and
> > perhaps
> > >> suggested how they are
> > >> > >> going to improve on them, or
> > >> > >> >>>>>> perhaps
> > indicate
> > >> what has changed
> > >> > >> that will make them a success.
> > >> > >> >>>>>> Maybe
> > seeking real
> > >> political
> > >> > >> support would gain some legitimacy.
> > >> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>>> on
> > the
> > >> positive side, I think
> > >> > >> Phoenix will attract a lot of
> > >> > >> >>>>>> technology
> > business
> > >> due to its
> > >> > >> relative low cost and no doubt you
> > will
> > >> > >> >>>>>> start to
> > see
> > >> community
> > >> > >> infrastructure grow. We are seeing
> > some
> > >> real
> > >> > >> >>>>>> urban
> > development
> > >> happening in Phx
> > >> > >> metro which has me very excited.
> > I
> > >> > >> >>>>>> think when
> > the
> > >> macroeconomic
> > >> > >> problems are sorted out we will see
> > >> > >> >>>>>> downtown
> > Phx
> > >> bloom. Im hoping
> > >> > >> that the average Arizonan gets
> > involved
> > >> > >> >>>>>> in the
> > political
> > >> process and make
> > >> > >> sure that the corruption stays out
> > >> > >> >>>>>> of city and
> > state
> > >> politics.
> > >> > >> Coming from NY, Im recognizing a
> > lot
> > >> of
> > >> > >> >>>>>> positive
> > development
> > >> trends in Phx
> > >> > >> metro.
> > >> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>>> -jmz
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >>
> > >>
> > ---------------------------------------------------
> > >> > >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss
> > mailing
> > >> list - PLUG-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
> > >> > >> >>>>> To subscribe,
> > >> unsubscribe, or to
> > >> > >> change your mail settings:
> > >> > >> >>>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> > >> > >> >>>>>
> > >> > >> >>>>
> > >> > >> >>>
> > >> > >> >>
> > >> > >>
> > >>
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