****Re: guess what....

Sun Aug 2 15:19:25 MST 2009

Who cares, the founding fathers are dead.

It's the living I care about; people can't continue to pretend that
allowing each other to do things that KILL amount to "respect" or some
basardized agrandized "American Way"!

Washington, Jefferson, and my ancestor Mifflin (signed the Bill of
Rights) were talking about race, religion and thought (including
science).

They spoke out clearly against things known to kill!  Sheesh!  What foolishness!

On 8/2/09, keith smith <klsmith2020 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Canada health care is not efficient.
>
> And why should someone have the authority to ell some else they cannot
> smoke, drink, or eat cheese burgers.
>
> If our Founding Fathers read this they would scream.
>
>
> ------------------------
> Keith Smith
>
>
> --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Lisa Kachold <lisakachold at obnosis.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Lisa Kachold <lisakachold at obnosis.com>
>> Subject: Re: ****Re: guess what....
>> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>> Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 2:35 PM
>> One of the 2 former posts is typical
>> "party diatribe"; you decide which!
>>
>> The irony of no health care in our economy is that unless
>> you
>> constantly replace people (who die, fail to make it in
>> employment or
>> become homeless)  [while also keeping the subset of
>> "healthy"
>> individuals completely separate] you win.
>>
>> The benefit of socialized health care includes research
>> and
>> statistics, eradication of diseases like STD's, TB and
>> childhood
>> illness, and control of the flu, and geratric survivial
>> (which assists
>> our children's children socially).  The system can
>> support it, and in
>> 20 years the benefits in advances in technology, industry
>> and spcial
>> stability are incredible.
>>
>> It's humane, and it's required to eradicate smoking, drug
>> and alcohol
>> abuse (often self medication for physical and emotional
>> illness)
>> alone.
>>
>> All systems in our society are inefficient - that doesn't
>> mean we
>> don't need IT systems for instance, it means we need
>> EFFICIENCY
>> (Canada as an example).
>> My father would turn over in his grave, since he also
>> wanted a free
>> economy, but would agree that people are worth health
>> care.
>>
>> Now, border control is another issue entirely!
>>
>>
>> On 8/2/09, Craig White <craigwhite at azapple.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2009-08-02 at 19:16 -0700, Vaughn Treude
>> wrote:
>> >> Lisa Kachold wrote:
>> >> > On 7/30/09, JD Austin <jd at twingeckos.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> The 'other' model isn't working any
>> better.  My wife works in an Urgent
>> >> >> Care; tons of Canadians come here to get
>> the health care they need.  I
>> >> >> think
>> >> >> the whole industry needs to be more
>> competitive; most things in health
>> >> >> care
>> >> >> shouldn't cost what they do.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> > Inefficiency in preventative care,
>> diagnostics, errors in surgery, the
>> >> > truth is incredibly expensive.
>> >> >
>> >> > But just because Canadians come here for care
>> doesn't mean it's not
>> >> > working.
>> >> >
>> >> <rant>
>> >> If by "working", you mean the majority of
>> Canadians people accept it,
>> >> and even think it's a good thing, I suppose it is.
>> They're just very
>> >> lucky they have a "safety valve", that is, a large
>> semi-free country
>> >> whose borders are within 100 miles of 90% of their
>> population.
>> >> Single-payer is, IMHO, the biggest piece of
>> economic foolishness ever
>> >> devised. Let's give an absolute monopoly to the
>> most inefficient,
>> >> corrupt organization ever invented by humans
>> (government.) As for the
>> >> notion that socialized medicine is cheaper, I
>> don't believe it for a
>> >> second. Governments can shift their costs to other
>> agencies; the
>> >> Pentagon does it all the time. I assume, for
>> example, the cost of having
>> >> "premiums" collected by the CRA doesn't get
>> counted in the balance
>> >> sheet. Not to mention the fact that a huge portion
>> of the overhead costs
>> >> of private insurers in the US is red tape imposed
>> by government
>> >> bureaucracies.
>> >> Not that I'm necessarily endorsing the current
>> system. There were a lot
>> >> of good not-for-profit medical insurers in this
>> country until Richard
>> >> Nixon changed the tax laws, causing a massive
>> takeover by greedy HMO's.
>> >> I'd like to see a system of decentralized medical
>> cooperatives with
>> >> for-profit companies as a supplement.
>> >> BTW, I don't blame the immigrants, but I do blame
>> the lawyers. :-)
>> >> </rant>
>> >>
>> >> No offense, just my two cents. :-)
>> >> There, I feel so much better.
>> >> Vaughn
>> > ----
>> > seeing as how the political discussions do not die
>> off, I am going to
>> > sound off here.
>> >
>> > The entire premise of the Canadian health care system
>> was to provide a
>> > single tier of medical coverage for all and no amount
>> of wealth would
>> > provide a better level of health care. You cannot
>> devise a system that
>> > is more fundamentally fair to everyone.
>> >
>> > The people who come here from Canada are doing
>> elective surgeries either
>> > not covered by the health care system in Canada or
>> prioritized in a
>> > manner that does not suit the person with money to pay
>> elsewhere.
>> >
>> > The language that you use Vaughn is loaded and
>> inaccurate...
>> > - we are not a safety valve, we provide elective
>> medical care to those
>> > who want to pay and go elsewhere.
>> >
>> > - the issue of a monopolized health care run by the
>> government happens
>> > to be that which is practiced in all other western
>> nations. We spend
>> > more per capita on health care than any other
>> industrialized nation and
>> > yet approximately 25% of our citizens do not have
>> coverage.
>> >
>> > - the insurance companies do worse managing the health
>> care than
>> > government could ever do. They practice murder by
>> spreadsheet. They
>> > invent rules for exclusions. Someone in this country
>> WITH health
>> > insurance goes bankrupt in this country every 30
>> seconds because of
>> > exclusions, deductibles, etc.
>> >
>> > - blaming the government red tape for the profits of
>> insurers is absurd
>> > to its core.
>> >
>> > An American citizen visiting Canada can get free
>> health care if needed.
>> >
>> > Any solution short of single-payer will fail and we
>> will be back here
>> > again, with more people excluded from coverage by
>> insurance companies,
>> > more people bankrupted by illness only because the
>> companies with
>> > profits at stake...insurance companies and drug
>> companies will spend
>> > unreasonable amounts of money to influence public
>> opinion and elected
>> > candidates.
>> >
>> > Craig
>> >
>> >
>> > --
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>> > believed to be clean.
>> >
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>>
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>> (623)239-3392
>> (503)754-4452 www.obnosis.com
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