Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX

[JD Austin]

Maybe it's time to try something new! - want to learn about open telephony
systems?

I hear you though... I'm totally dissatisfied about the tech infrastructure
in the east valley. I have three options for internet and they're all
horrible.

On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Michael Butash <michael at butash.net> wrote:

> Well, largely I agree with Joshua's assessment, sounds like his
> experience is much like mine...
>
> I moved to the Bay area in 99, worked tech there for 2 years, moved back
> when things imploded in 01.  Since being back versed with tech skill and
> corporate politics, I've only ever been able to describe most business
> in Arizona as bass-ackward and/or hot-air propelled.  Largely I note
> Arizona seems to encourage abuse of fair labor standards act for
> salaried employees, resulting in a lot of "sweatshop IT" mentality in
> corporations here.  Funny I heard mentioned godaddy and 2wire, as they
> tend to be some of the biggest offenders of running said sweat shops.
> Give your buddy 6 months at the Daddy to acclimate to them and ask what
> he thinks.  :)
>
> When I did move back to AZ, I'd joined some professional "networking"
> groups like AZIPA that led to not much more than pedantic bickering and
> posturing, not much at all helpful for business or technology
> opportunities.  Ultimately I saw it splinter, fracture, and a lot of
> people simply lose interest because of it, including myself.  From that
> I found being an island unto yourself isn't always a bad thing, simply
> networking with people I met through work.  Only recently have I
> somewhat opened up to professional networking though LinkedIn and user
> groups like this one, but really just to keep touch with associates and
> clients of mine.  I'm still gun shy on the rest...
>
> Since being back in AZ, I've worked for a lot of IT shops and been
> exposed to a lot of people shifting between jobs, finding that more or
> less most corporate politics surrounding IT are the same, and not
> typically good.  I worked 3 years at GoDaddy prior and through massive
> growth, while one of my best work experiences (building cool/expensive
> stuff), it was also one of the worst (meat grinder stressful workplace,
> implosive politics).  GD and frankly a lot of companies I've been
> exposed to are more alike than not, typically because of clueless upper
> management and general lack of ethics, but somehow forge along despite
> themselves.  Closest analogy I can equated it to universally is "the
> blind leading the blind", where self-serving politics, combined with
> poor technological leadership, and now volatile economics eventually
> dictate perspective reasoning of how things work.  Bad things tend to
> result, and often...
>
> The difference between working in the Bay Area and in Arizona is stark.
> Generally I found a lot better talent there, with a stronger likeliness
> to embrace technology, and be passionate about their work.  Here there's
> just a lot of people graduating DeVry, UoP, WIU, and other "schools"
> cranking out mediocre certified/degreed cannon-fodder for the local IT
> shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream job.  It's almost scary
> walking into new customer businesses consulting anymore, pretty safe to
> assume someone knows nothing than anything about the tech they support.
> While I did have this too in the Bay Area, the clueless admin syndrome
> is a heck of a lot more prevalent here.  Work ethics tend to be crappier
> too.  I dunno, something in the water perhaps...
>
> Look around at the sheer number of call centers for businesses out of
> state we have here, and that should tell you something.  A lot of
> low-pay, mediocre jobs, and a career path to become a cattle herder of
> these call centers, maybe even move into middle management if you're
> lucky.  Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wire, CableOne, Cox, ETelecare, etc
> simply rotate people in and out like underwear, but they're the armpits
> that fund a lot of the IT business around town as well, as someone's got
> to support all the infrastructure to take those calls.  Godaddy's call
> centers are slightly different because they actually MAKE them money, so
> they tend to commission merit pay and lavish gifts readily upon them to
> keep everyone happy, but it's still at the root just another sweatshop
> call center.  Other call centers are much less forgiving...
>
> Supporting IT shops around call centers tends to be a double-edged
> sword, especially when the call center slave mentality pervades into the
> how companies deal with or even drive IT folk.  Even non-call-centers
> seem to act this way locally more commonly than not, just because they
> can, and it's the atmosphere people are becoming acclimated to.  As
> people migrate jobs, I think ultimately this pervasive mentality results
> in excessive overwork and general dissatisfaction, causing a
> trickle-down effect into other work places.
>
> These disinterested/jaded/overworked/underpaid workers now head out into
> other IT shops to maintain infrastructure over their head and
> undermanned, meaning things degrade eventually even if once deployed
> properly.  I'm not at all certain if this is just a local thing, or the
> new national standard at work, but it seems much more pervasive here
> than certain other localities I work with.  Professional ethics are hard
> to find these days in general with hard times indeed.  Anyone else of
> hiring capacity notice try hiring *good* people these days?  Pretty
> difficult if you ask me.
>
> Overall, working in the tech field here for the past 8 years in a more
> senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I want to remain in AZ long-term.
> As I get older, my flame to set upon the world diminishes, I'll probably
> just wander until I feel comfortable for a bit.  I love AZ, but I'm
> fairly disparaged by the business opportunities here after all these
> years...
>
> So enough hot-air of my own, take it as you will, but that's my take on
> things.  Feel free to disagree.  :)
>
> Good discussion indeed, interesting to hear other's opinions on the
> matter.
>
> -mb
>
>
> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote:
> > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith smith<klsmith2020 at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I think what is really missing from this equation is mentoring and
> training.
> >
> >   what I would like to see is some real support from AZ government to
> > help make tech companies feel welcome here.  This means:
> >
> >   1) making the valley a good place not only to build a company but to
> > build a *career*.  this means buy in from both sides of the equation.
> > I would like to see a bit more address at lower capital levels, but
> > that may prove to be difficult.  It seems that most existing concepts
> > are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you build a factory
> > in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers, but technology
> > requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving job market.  The
> > needs are quite different.  The biggest issue with starting a company
> > out here is finding people.  Where are all the people?  in CA.
> > because it has a good job market.  If we can outsource to India, we
> > sure as hell can outsource to Arizona.
> >
> >   2) setting up low cost legal structure and as you say mentoring to
> > really help stimulate technology development.  We've seen (at least
> > nominal) efforts in the past.  Why did they fail?  This means real and
> > adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production and market.  A
> > small investment in this area will yield returns in tax base and
> > property value by a factor of hundreds.  Arizona has the potential to
> > pick up a lot of this commercial activity because California is
> > currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state to build your
> > business.  If AZ fails to see the opportunity here, we will lose out
> > big time.  Currently the budget proceedings are still in gridlock.
> >
> >   the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right idea, he was suggesting
> > recently a green technology center near Phx center.  I think thats the
> > direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz
> >
> > >
> > > I like the idea that folks are getting together to network.  This is a
> really cool idea.  Even for non-technical stuff like finding out how people
> deal with customers, contracting, book-keeping, ETC.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------
> > > Keith Smith
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX
> > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <
> plug-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM
> > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM,
> > >> Alan Dayley<alandd at consultpros.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > Joshua,
> > >> >
> > >> > I put all your replies together in one long document
> > >> and reread them.
> > >> > I am still confused a bit.  Enlightenment via email
> > >> rarely occurs.
> > >> > However, I really want to understand your position in
> > >> this discussion.
> > >> >  Let me summarize what I understand from your
> > >> replies.
> > >> >
> > >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your comments]---
> > >> >
> > >> > - There is a small group or groups of people who keep
> > >> spinning off
> > >> > communities using tired marketing techniques.  This
> > >> results in blogs
> > >> > but not true communities.
> > >> >
> > >> > - Some of these people cannot deal with existing
> > >> structure and the
> > >> > efforts of the past.
> > >> >
> > >> > - These weak attempts do not articulate goals or
> > >> purpose well, if at all.
> > >> >
> > >> > - We must honestly look at criticism to learn and
> > >> improve.
> > >> >
> > >> > - These weak people need to address the efforts of the
> > >> past and
> > >> > provide suggestions on how they can be improved upon.
> > >> >
> > >> > - Getting political support will provide legitimacy to
> > >> their efforts.
> > >> >
> > >> > - Phoenix will attract technology businesses because
> > >> of the relative
> > >> > low cost and this will help improve things.
> > >> >
> > >> > - You have first hand experiences of weak, marketing
> > >> fronted,
> > >> > community building efforts.
> > >> >
> > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand ideas but get
> > >> nowhere with them
> > >> > because they are not real businesses.
> > >> >
> > >> > - People at a co-working location or coffee shop will
> > >> not help you
> > >> > with your business unless you pay them.
> > >> >
> > >> > - Most people at co-working started their one person
> > >> business after
> > >> > being laid-off and are not serious about it.  They
> > >> are really just
> > >> > looking for the next full time gig.  This will get in
> > >> your way if you
> > >> > have real business work to do.
> > >> >
> > >> > - We must look truthfully at this issue if we are to
> > >> make progress.
> > >> >
> > >> > - There are no serious incubators and entrepreneurial
> > >> meetups in
> > >> > Phoenix.  No announcements on VC funding of companies
> > >> so it's not
> > >> > really entrepreneurial growth.
> > >> >
> > >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your comments]---
> > >> >
> > >> > I see validity in every one of these comments.  I
> > >> also think many of
> > >> > them can be balanced by the other point of view.  I
> > >> still have
> > >> > questions, if I may ask, before I state too much of my
> > >> own thinking.
> > >> > I want to learn more about your thinking.
> > >> >
> > >> > 1. What does "deal with existing structure" mean?
> > >>  This confuses me,
> > >> > not know what structure you are talking about.
> > >>
> > >>   Many user groups have been formed and continue to
> > >> exist... how is
> > >> <groupX> different?  other than its led by
> > >> person Y?  I mean dealing
> > >> with some of these groups I feel like Im back to age 8
> > >> trying to gain
> > >> admittance into the neighborhood treehouse.  Perhaps I
> > >> should spend
> > >> more time drinking beer with these people?  Seeing the
> > >> same small
> > >> group churning out 'communities' is at first funny, then
> > >> annoying.  I
> > >> just see a real lack of serious intent, and unless that is
> > >> noted
> > >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad.  I really dont
> > >> think Im being
> > >> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out some valid
> > >> observations.
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you referring?  I
> > >> want to
> > >> > understand the size and nature of efforts to creating
> > >> a community that
> > >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did not work as
> > >> planned.
> > >>
> > >>   I remember when I first came to AZ that there was an
> > >> tech
> > >> incubator...  what happened to it?  Which
> > >> political agents currently
> > >> support technology development in the valley?  what do
> > >> they think
> > >> about your org?  these things are pretty basic...
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > 3. What political support is needed?  You mean
> > >> government funding of
> > >> > events or startups or just verbal support or what?
> > >>
> > >>   I wouldn't expect funding, but it would be good to
> > >> see some
> > >> political buy in.  Lack of just supports my opinions,
> > >> that its really
> > >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor organization.
> > >> Without any good
> > >> signposts, all this will produce are people who get jaded
> > >> and
> > >> disaffected with regards to this location.  If you had
> > >> something
> > >> together I doubt that a good politician would turn you
> > >> down.
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for someone who is
> > >> laid-off to have
> > >> > grand ideas, talk about them and they never come to
> > >> be?
> > >>
> > >>   Its not.  As I said, I don't find any of these
> > >> things highly
> > >> offensive- but like you I am free to express myself.
> > >> Sorry if its not
> > >> filled with abundant exaltations.
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people might help each
> > >> other in business
> > >> > efforts?  Isn't strengthening and creating such a
> > >> culture a good idea
> > >> > or should such a goal not be pursued because it is not
> > >> practically
> > >> > possible?
> > >>
> > >>   sure.  good thread btw.  -jmz
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > Alan
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com
> >
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >> another great one:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are the incubators,
> > >> the "bootstrap"
> > >> >> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial meetups in
> > >> Phoenix??? (crickets
> > >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't happening as a
> > >> serious place where
> > >> >> serious people are doing serious things. No one
> > >> wants it badly enough
> > >> >> here. This paper should be having at least one
> > >> article a week on a new
> > >> >> startup and the VC firm who funded it.
> > >> Helloooo????? is anybody out
> > >> >> there...."
> > >> >>
> > >> >> a better way to phrase this: we need to stop
> > >> pretending these
> > >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by local
> > >> self-employed marketing experts
> > >> >> are sufficient.  They are not.  We should be
> > >> asking the hard
> > >> >> questions, not playing games.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> -jmz
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Joshua
> > >> Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >>>  another point, honestly reading through some
> > >> of the criticisms on
> > >> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe dwelling creed
> > >> myself, I'd have to say
> > >> >>> that many of those points are accurate.  I've
> > >> heard lots of
> > >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big ideas around here who
> > >> never get anywhere with
> > >> >>> them.  Sorry, but a word press template
> > >> doesn't make you an
> > >> >>> entrepreneur.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>  "These are the same people you see at
> > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any
> > >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are not
> > >> entrepreneurs they are attention
> > >> >>> (inappropriate term)."
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>  "Many of the Co-Worker location founders
> > >> tout other people to
> > >> >>> collaborate with and who can "compensate for
> > >> your deficiencies". Do
> > >> >>> you really believe someone that you are not
> > >> paying as an employee is
> > >> >>> going to somehow compensate for your
> > >> deficiencies and make your
> > >> >>> business better? That kind of help doesn't
> > >> come without a price."
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>  oh so true...
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>  "You are more likely to get a bunch of
> > >> people chatting to you over
> > >> >>> your "work" so you wont be concentrating as
> > >> you should to focus on
> > >> >>> your business. Most of these people started
> > >> businesses after being
> > >> >>> laid off. They are searching for a new job and
> > >> they aren't really
> > >> >>> serious about their "businesses" so how do you
> > >> expect them to give you
> > >> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are these the kind
> > >> of people you need to
> > >> >>> compensate for your deficiencies? A bunch of
> > >> people half-as running
> > >> >>> their "business" while searching for a real
> > >> job and bothering you with
> > >> >>> their expertise that got them laid off in the
> > >> first place."
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>  oh so so true...
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>  I would be willing to bet the commenter
> > >> above is an tried and true
> > >> >>> successful entrepreneur.  Perhaps the reason
> > >> I am so skeptical is
> > >> >>> because I know these kind of people so well.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>  sorry I really wish I could be more
> > >> supportive... but :  truth is
> > >> >>> the foundation of progress.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>  -jmz
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Joshua
> > >> Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >>>>  Alan,
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>    Wish I had time to respond to all
> > >> these points right now, not sure
> > >> >>>> you read me the way I would prefer
> > >> however.  Its not so grave a
> > >> >>>> warning, just getting the word out on my
> > >> first hand experiences.  Im
> > >> >>>> just one of many- but hopefully an
> > >> impartial observer and someone
> > >> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ.
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>  all the best, jmz
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Alan
> > >> Dayley<alandd at consultpros.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >>>>> Josh,
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> I feel warned.  And I don't
> > >> understand the reason for such a strong warning.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> There are people in every industry,
> > >> government or community who wish
> > >> >>>>> to fleece their "community" for their
> > >> own profit instead of mutual
> > >> >>>>> benefit.  The trick is to find the
> > >> positive people and ignore the
> > >> >>>>> rest.  Apply the same filter with
> > >> every event, group or blogger in the
> > >> >>>>> lists and links I provided.  I don't
> > >> expect bloggers or techies to be
> > >> >>>>> any different, as if being techie
> > >> makes one a saint.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Some of those bloggers are purely
> > >> commercial or completely neglected,
> > >> >>>>> I'm sure.  Some of the groups or
> > >> events or sites listed are lousy,
> > >> >>>>> boring or poor marketing excuses to
> > >> sell something.  Some are not out
> > >> >>>>> to create community but to build a
> > >> "kingdom" for their own benefit.
> > >> >>>>> They are the duds.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Let's look at a few positives:
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank Manifesto on
> > >> their home page at
> > >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com.  That looks like
> > >> a great articulation of their
> > >> >>>>> goals and purpose.  Ones I strongly
> > >> support!
> > >> >>>>> -- Read how the manifesto came to be
> > >> on Derek's blog at
> > >> >>>>>
> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or is hosting:
> > >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long conference on
> > >> developing for phones like
> > >> >>>>> iPhone or Android
> > >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 hour Saturday
> > >> event for kids 5-15 to learn
> > >> >>>>> programming concepts
> > >> >>>>> -- Wordpress training classes for
> > >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs
> > >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day long
> > >> conference on job searching and entreprenuership
> > >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a day long
> > >> conference on software development
> > >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch ted.com videos
> > >> and discuss them
> > >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night of open mic
> > >> music and entertainment
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and
> > >> nearly
> > >> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix campus with
> > >> developers talking about code or
> > >> >>>>> making code.  Free lunch of pizza and
> > >> sub sandwiches was provided too.
> > >> >>>>>  Put together by volunteers.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - If you're into Microsoft based
> > >> development tech, the people who
> > >> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day
> event at
> > >> >>>>> venues like the Orphium Theater and at
> > >> no cost to attendees.  Fine,
> > >> >>>>> it's marketing for MS but it's put on
> > >> by volunteers here in the valley
> > >> >>>>> and a great way for people to learn
> > >> about things that improve their
> > >> >>>>> career skills.
> > >> >>>>> (
> http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx
> )
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails group has
> > >> monthly meetings with around 30
> > >> >>>>> regularly in attendance.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - The Java group is also well attended
> > >> every month.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put
> on
> > >> by
> > >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost (donation
> > >> requested) to attendees.  Had about 350
> > >> >>>>> people attend last year (if I recall)
> > >> for two days of conference.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in
> > >> November
> > >> >>>>> for the forth year.  This one costs
> > >> $100+ but should be as well
> > >> >>>>> attended as last year with 200+
> > >> people.  Funded and organized in part
> > >> >>>>> by a local venture capital group.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago
> with
> > >> a
> > >> >>>>> little over 100 in attendance and has
> > >> grown to fill the 600 seat
> > >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center for the Arts
> > >> back in June.  The connections
> > >> >>>>> made there live well past the event.
> > >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council member and the
> > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last
> > >> >>>>> time, though he was a bit silly trying
> > >> to be Tempe exclusive.  That
> > >> >>>>> seems to be at least verbal political
> > >> support.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on FS/OSS is
> > >> being planned for October and
> > >> >>>>> should be better than last year. (Go
> > >> Hans and team!)
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> I'm not going to go on, though I could
> > >> point out several purely social
> > >> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west
> > >> valley
> > >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley Thursday Morning
> > >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch,
> > >> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet and Eat and
> > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch
> > >> >>>>> presentations every Wednesday.
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Now, having said all of that "giddy
> > >> blind optimism," I'd like to
> > >> >>>>> understand how the above does not
> > >> address the efforts of the past or
> > >> >>>>> provide improvement over past efforts.
> > >>  What are the real needs of the
> > >> >>>>> community, if not some of the above?
> > >>  What would you suggest?  How can
> > >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it?
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> Alan
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:34 PM,
> > >> Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner at gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >>>>>>  Alan,
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>    while I appreciate your post,
> > >> and anyone who is making a sincere
> > >> >>>>>> effort to build community in
> > >> Phoenix... be warned.  There are some
> > >> >>>>>> small groups who periodically
> > >> spawn off new 'communities' every month
> > >> >>>>>> or so.  Look closely and you see
> > >> the same few people with reused
> > >> >>>>>> marketing recipes.  Lots of blog
> > >> and not too much community I'm
> > >> >>>>>> afraid.  Their efforts amount to
> > >> some simple branding and putting up a
> > >> >>>>>> blog.  While these things are not
> > >> really particularily offensive to
> > >> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat detract from
> > >> interest in the real needs of the
> > >> >>>>>> community here.  Some of these
> > >> people are just outright idiotic and
> > >> >>>>>> cannot deal with existing
> > >> structure and refuse to accept the history
> > >> >>>>>> of efforts in the past.  They
> > >> lack any articulation of their goals and
> > >> >>>>>> purpose.  Often times they have
> > >> trouble organizing even small groups
> > >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3.  Dont forget we've had
> > >> a tech incubator here.  Lets not
> > >> >>>>>> smack down sincere criticism in
> > >> favor of giddy blind optimism,
> > >> >>>>>> remember you can't improve without
> > >> criticism.  I would take these
> > >> >>>>>> people much more seriously if they
> > >> addressed the efforts of the past
> > >> >>>>>> and perhaps suggested how they are
> > >> going to improve on them, or
> > >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate what has changed
> > >> that will make them a success.
> > >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real political
> > >> support would gain some legitimacy.
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>    on the positive side, I think
> > >> Phoenix will attract a lot of
> > >> >>>>>> technology business due to its
> > >> relative low cost and no doubt you will
> > >> >>>>>> start to see community
> > >> infrastructure grow.  We are seeing some real
> > >> >>>>>> urban development happening in Phx
> > >> metro which has me very excited.  I
> > >> >>>>>> think when the macroeconomic
> > >> problems are sorted out we will see
> > >> >>>>>> downtown Phx bloom.  Im hoping
> > >> that the average Arizonan gets involved
> > >> >>>>>> in the political process and make
> > >> sure that the corruption stays out
> > >> >>>>>> of city and state politics.
> > >>  Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of
> > >> >>>>>> positive development trends in Phx
> > >> metro.
> > >> >>>>>>
> > >> >>>>>>  -jmz
> > >> >>>>>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------
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> PLUG-discuss at lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
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> > >> change your mail settings:
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> > >> >>>>>
> > >> >>>>
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>
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