Confrontation and bickering (Was: Re: chix finder)

[alex at crackpot.org]

Mike : Thanks for a clear, well-reasoned, well-supported, and quite  
enlightening post.  I think you've said a lot of worthwhile stuff  
about list dynamics.

I know I sometimes say stuff in email (on this list and elsewhere)  
that's interpreted as hostile when I didn't mean it that way.  I've  
also taken offense from posts where I found out later none was meant.   
It's good to be reminded every so often of how prevalent this  
phenomenon is.

alex

Quoting Mike Schwartz <schwartz at acm.org>:

> On Tue, Feb 26, 2008 at 8:54 AM, Erich Newell <erich.newell at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> [...] this thread... [...] the bickering.
>> [...snip...]
>>
>> For those who seem unable to debate without personal insult:
>> Please learn to focus discussion on the topic at hand and not
>> the belief structure or mental faculties of others involved in the
>> conversation.
>>
>> For those who seem unable to debate without personal injury:
>> The world is filled with those who are every bit as intelligent,
>> clever and passionate as you are...who hold a viewpoint
>> diametrically opposed to yours. Please grow a pair.
>>
>> For the record: I welcome any and all comments. My feelings
>> are indestructible. Debate and discourse feed my soul and help
>> me to shape the axioms of my life and allow me to better understand
>> others...even those who infuriate me to no end. (You know who you are)
>>
>> I look forward to some quality discussions with you all, especially
>> those concerning our common love of Linux.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>    Erich Newell
>> --
>> "A man is defined by the questions that he asks; and the way he   
>> goes about finding the answers to those questions is the way he   
>> goes through life."
>> ---------------------------------------------------
>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - [...]
>
> I *thought* something about this rang a bell!
> First, in Craig White's post 10:32 am today
>      
> http://lists.plug.phoenix.az.us/lurker/message/20080226.164214.e6a07a49.en.html
> (or was it 9:42 am?  whatever...)
>      I read the part about
>> I suggested [...] that you were tone deaf and I think
>> I speak with experience here because I am often
>> accused of being tone deaf too.
> ...and it reminded me of someone on the facebook site who
> joined a group called "Adults with Asperger's Syndrome":
>      http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3063365093
> it lists numerous issues, "such as":
>> Awareness of hurting the feelings of others: a lack of empathy
>> often leads to unintentionally offensive or insensitive behaviors.
> (do I need to join that "facebook group" also?  Naah...)
> (For some *humor!*, and maybe insight too, see
>      http://isnt.autistics.org/
> ).
> Then I came to this thread -and, when I saw the stuff about
>> I welcome any and all comments.
>> My feelings are indestructible.
> it just clicked, and I decided to find that
> old (original) message (that had a link to
>     http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html
> ...turns out it was from Jan 14, 2008, from Craig White):
>      
> http://lists.plug.phoenix.az.us/lurker/message/20080115.022617.b714aa23.en.html
> so - while it might be too late for some folks who have already
> decided to "killfile" [unsub from] (stop reading) this list
>     (ha-ha - see http://catb.org/jargon/html/K/kill-file.html),
> I hope that maybe some [others]
> would take a step back, and rather than being scared off
> by some of the late (perceived?) unpleasantness, would take
> heart and keep in mind the stuff mentioned in
>     http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html
> .
> That is, perhaps others such as
>> Did I make a wrong choice is joining this group?
> which is a quote from
>       
> http://lists.plug.phoenix.az.us/lurker/message/20080226.134243.5e5c24f1.en.html
> and everyone else who might be thinking (but maybe
> not posting) along the same lines.
> PS:  I think according to some philosophies, the ideal is to
> learn "both" kinds of filtering (see
>     http://www.mit.edu/~jcb/tact.html
> for the 2 kinds) (input and output, basically).  That seems to
> be the point of (much of) the message I am replying to, here.
> That is, one should have a "Turtle Wax" exterior so as not to
> take offense when none was intended, and just let it
> roll off like beads of rain water, or maybe even so as to
> [be armor-plated, and]
> not get too upset even when some offense was intended,
> at least in those cases where the person is being "not just"
> impolite "but also" intentionally obnoxious.  And
> one should also be careful with one's output messages,
> to self-censor one's outputs (like, posts) "as appropriate".
> Obviously that is hard to do, for some folks - such as
> the "Adults with Asperger's Syndrome"
> and some other ["normal" or neuro-typical] folks who just
> don't have the right radar or x-rays or whatever it is.
> Sure, it's hard to do - witness the quantity of wives and
> girlfriends who, when the guy fails to just know something
> without being told, they slip in to a habit of assuming that
> if the guy really cared, then he could have just spent X
> amount more of time / effort, and he would have been
> able to know (whatever it is) without being told.  [Ha!]
> But it doesn't necessarily mean it's better to give up.
> 'Do the best you can.'
> sorry this was so long...
> --
> Mike Schwartz
> Glendale  AZ
> schwartz at acm.org
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