Need to outsource programming or hire full-time

Tue Aug 28 10:13:47 MST 2007

Jason Ho-Ching,

   This post is ridiculous.

   I don't support any of these claims.  If I was doing any of these things
at Echazen.com, why did you retain me?  The fact was, you completely and
totally mismanaged this project at Echazen.com and tried to pass the blame
on a contractor.

   Echazen.com is not some company of people, you have a few loosely
affiliated contractors and thats it.  Stop pretending like Echazen.com is
some kind of major development shop.

   The fact is Jason Ho-Ching, good developers are no where near as abundant
and cheap as you would like them to be.

   Working with Jason Ho-Ching does pose a significant risk.  Make sure you
get at least a weeks pay as deposit.  He failed to pay me for a weeks worth
of clocked hours and he has zero respect for developers.

-jmz

On 8/28/07, Scottsdale Arizona Web Design <
plug at scottsdalearizonawebdesign.com> wrote:
>
>  Joshua,
>
> Do you really want me to post my experience with you?  This is exactly
> what I didn't want to happen with this thread.  I am not a man that likes to
> publicly bash another person.  I have   more integrity than that.  But you
> have directly attacked my character and I feel I need to defend myself.
> Here is the truth on the matter:
>
> About a year ago, I was overworked and overstressed so I decided to get a
> full-time job and run my business on the side.  I posted an ad on craigslist
> asking for a freelance per-project  programmer.  Joshua responded and was
> chosen by me personally because of his list of qualifications and his hourly
> rate (it was either $25 or $35/hr).
>
> Joshua kindly agreed to take any incoming sales calls and would be awarded
> a percentage of any projects landed.  His first real call was from a
> business man in phoenix that had a large project for us.  We went to meet
> with him on June 29th 2006 in Phoenix.  He asked what our rates are and we
> told him our rate was $85/hr.  He said he couldn't go over $50/hr and so we
> agreed to it.
>
> After describing the project, Joshua blurted out, "oh, we could do this
> for less than $5000".  I was not happy about that because it was not his
> place to give the client quotes, especially since I, the owner, was in the
> meeting.  He blurted that quote without asking me what the graphic design
> costs would be or what the Flash development costs would be.  The client
> then proceeded to take out his calculator and stated, "well, I had budgeted
> for about 500 hours of development time."  This means he had budget about
> $25000 for this project.
>
> We agreed to do the project for about $5000 and the client gave us four
> months to do it.  The client gave us a down payment and I gave Joshua his
> portion of it.  I routinely checked in with Joshua to see where he was on
> the project and he always had an answer about what he had completed.  On
> August 17, I asked Joshua for his hours because we needed to send another
> invoice.  He gave me gave me only 8 hours.  I was surprised because he had
> given me updates that would seem he spent more time than that.  I asked him
> why he had so few hours in and he told me not to worry because, truthfully,
> he could knock it out in one weekend.
>
> Well, after three and a half months and 2 weeks to deadline, Joshua admits
> that he hasn't even started developing the project and that he needs more
> time because he was working on other projects (for other clients).
> Basically, he had been misleading me for almost 4 months about the project.
>
>
> I called the client and the client was very understanding.  He gave us an
> extra two weeks to get the project done.  Joshua now had 4 weeks to get it
> done and said it wouldn't be a problem.
>
> As a side note, during this time he also was working with another client
> that had called in for another small project that he got a downpayment for.
> He had two projects that he was supposed to be working on.  Also, during the
> entire time he was working with me he would complain about society, the
> economy, the future of american business and how all web design firms would
> implode in the US because everything is going to India.  He was very "dooms
> day", the glass is half empty and I talked with him several times about
> being more positive.  He would also constantly tell me that I needed to hire
> him full-time on salary and that he wanted to move back to New York because
> he wasn't happy here.  Instead of talking about projects when we were on the
> phone, I would turn into his listening ear.
>
> So two more weeks go by and I call Joshua for an update.  He then tells me
> that he is too busy to do the project.  He tells me this after 4 months to
> get this project done that he, supposedly, could "knock out in one
> weekend".  I then find out that he hasn't been working on the other project
> either!  All the updates he was giving me were just to buy him more time.
> He wasn't being truthful with me.
>
> Basically, his message to me was that I would have to hire him full-time
> and on salary if I wanted him to work for me.  I severed all ties with him
> and had to go to my indian team to complete the project and they did it in 3
> weeks.  I was very, very disappointed in Joshua and was surprised that
> anyone would do this to another person.
>
> "Although many view job postings as positive in all respects, the regular
> abuse of a list for dubious employment opportunities is a good way to scare
> away all serious developers. "
>
> How was my job posting to you dubious?  You knew that it was on a
> per-project basis.  Where did I mislead you?  I was always completely honest
> with you but you wanted something else...something I did NOT post for.
> Joshua...please tell me when or where I was ever dishonest or misleading
> with you in any regard.  Please share with us where there was any fault on
> my end.  You and I both know the truth and that I never lied about
> anything.  Not once did I ever tell you I was going to hire you full-time.
> Not once did I not pay an invoice you sent me.
>
> "In general though I am beginning to grow rather tired of running into
> these 1 man shows posing as multi-national corporations who think developers
> are some kind of cheap disposable commodity. "
>
> I was a one-man show that had designers in Romania and Sweden.  My
> programmers were in India and I wanted someone that I could work with
> face-to-face.  That is why I wanted a local programmer.  There is nothing
> wrong with having development and design done outside the US if you're a
> startup.  It is an interesting fact that I have many web designers outside
> the U.S. that do work for some of the top firms in the country.  Everyone
> outsources.  When I first moved to Phoenix, a local web design firm offered
> me a job.  I visited their offices in north phoenix and found that ALL
> aspects of their company were developed in India.  This includes graphic
> design!
>
> My company has changed dramatically changed since last year.  Obviously I
> don't work for anyone else anymore.  We have moved into a very nice office
> building and I now have a full-time business manager/project manager that
> has worked in several executive postiions at companies such as deloite and
> touche, Intel, American Express.  If you call our office, either my business
> manager or the receptionist will answer the phone.  I am also here in the
> office if anyone would like to speak with me.
>
> "Clearly, by the legacy of job posts that I pointed out, I am not the
> first or last person Jason has had a 'bad experience' with."
>
> It's not about bad experiences.  As programmers, I would assume you have
> all at least once or twice not answered the phone when one of your clients
> calls for one reason or another.  Our programmer in Idaho has a wife with
> serious health issues.  They are constantly at the hospital for days at a
> time and does not let us know until after they return.  This is
> understandable, but we cannot run our business this way.  The other
> programmer in Texas just does our e-commerce and CMS projects.  He has been
> with me for years but does not develop from the ground up.  He just uses
> open source packages and alters them.
>
> We are looking for developers that can code from scratch.  We are not
> looking to replace the Texas programmer.  WE WANT LOCAL PROGRAMMERS.
>
> I have no issues with allowing those who come in for interviews to contact
> the these two programmers and ask them any questions you want.  You will
> find that they have gotten paid for every hour worked and that we keep them
> pretty busy.
>
> Please go back and look at the job description.  I was 100% clear what the
> roles would be.  The first is on a per-project basis and the 2nd is a
> guaranteed 40-50 hours a week.  The first position is for freelancers that
> can work from home or at their own office.  The second position requires
> that you work in our offices.
>
> These are LEGITIMATE working positions.  Please only respond to this
> thread if you enjoy what you do and would like to get paid well doing it.
> Joshua, I feel, has turned many of you away from something that is a great
> opportunity and that pays very well.  Don't write us off until you meet with
> us and find out for yourself.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Joshua Zeidner wrote:
>
> Alan,
>
>   Obviously, I have had some unsatisfactory business Jason in the past.
> Of course, I don't want to deter anyone from posting job ads, or even
> working with Jason.  If Jason wants to do business, I do think it is his
> responsibility to do so in an upfront way.  Although many view job postings
> as positive in all respects, the regular abuse of a list for dubious
> employment opportunities is a good way to scare away all serious
> developers.  The 'craigslist effect' happens when readers have no way of
> distinguishing BS artists from sincere requests.  An interesting feature of
> craigslist is that there is no easy way to post back a response, and this
> has a way of fostering false information.  what kind of job market do we
> want here?  A place for people to do business...  or a sleazy pick up joint?
>
>
>   In general though I am beginning to grow rather tired of running into
> these 1 man shows posing as multi-national corporations who think developers
> are some kind of cheap disposable commodity.  They seem to be some kind of
> vestige of the dot com boom.  Clearly, by the legacy of job posts that I
> pointed out, I am not the first or last person Jason has had a 'bad
> experience' with.  Its unfortunate that this situation had to turn into a
> confrontation, but all I did ask was that he provide his actual identity,
> and I don't think thats asking a lot.  And finally, I am not doing this out
> of some personal vendetta, but rather as a service to others like me who
> deserve to be warned of potentially costly and problematic situations.
>
>   Any serious employer would post here despite the risk of someone like me
> posing questions in front of the group.
>
>   Thanks Alan, I will respect your request not to develop this thread any
> further.  I hope you understand that my intentions here are based in neither
> spite or malice.  If we all want a functional place to communicate and do
> business, it takes work and input.
>
>   Sincerely,
>
>     Josh Zeidner
>
>
>
>
> On 8/27/07, Alan Dayley <alandd at consultpros.com > wrote:
> >
> > Joshua Zeidner wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/27/07, *Scottsdale Arizona Web Design* <
> > > plug at scottsdalearizonawebdesign.com
> > > <mailto:plug at scottsdalearizonawebdesign.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >     Jason Ho-Ching
> > >     Owner of several companies and sites including:
> > >     echazen.com <http://echazen.com>
> > >     scottsdale arizona web design
> > >     zencart masters
> > >     askamormon.com <http://askamormon.com>
> > >     wearesamoa.com < http://wearesamoa.com>
> > >     480.355.1434
> > >
> > >     For the record, I used to post on the utah plug list at
> > www.plug.org
> > >     < http://www.plug.org>.  Every post there is highly visible on the
> > >     search engines.  Google my name and you'll see a plug post on the
> > >     first page.  I have had job postings there get put on google that
> > >     discussed projects and what I am paying to my programmers.  This
> > is
> > >     the type of information I don't want my clients to see.  We bill
> > our
> > >     clients at $85/hr and I don't want clients to see that we pay some
> >
> > >     programmers only $40/hr and what not.
> > >
> > >     This is why I didn't want all my personal info to be posted here
> > >     because I assumed it would be as public as the plug.org
> > >     <http://plug.org> postings from utah.
> > >
> > >     I hope this clears up any confusion.  I have posted my name and
> > >     number at the top.  I might as well tell you what we're offering
> > to
> > >     pay, too, since everything is now on the table.  We are looking to
> > >     pay between $40/hr and $75/hr.  Software engineers will make
> > closer
> > >     to $75/hr.  These are top-level developers only.  The owner of the
> >
> > >     company in utah will be interviewing the candidates to filter out
> > >     the more inexperienced developers.  I have already had a very,
> > very,
> > >     very bad experience with a programmer on this board.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >   Who would that be?
> >
> > In the context of a discussion on the PLUG email list, this question is
> > not appropriate.  If you really want to know, talk with Jason off-list.
> >
> > IMO, this thread has gone a direction that is helpful neither to the
> > group nor to the originator.  Job postings to the list should be brief
> > and to the point, providing an off-list contact.  The original posting
> > provided this, identifying the source of the posting as "Scottsdale
> > Arizona Web Design".  The rest of the information posted in the thread,
> > while all public, was not needed in the email list.
> >
> > My opinion and suggestion is to not take this thread any further.  Let's
> > encourage employers to post jobs, not drag them down in side
> > discussions.  Interested parties can learn further details on their own
> > or in other more appropriate channels.
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
>
>
> --
> .0000. communication.
> .0001. development.
> .0010. strategy.
> .0100. appeal.
>
> JOSHUA M. ZEIDNER
> IT Consultant
>
> ( 602 ) 490 8006
> jjzeidner at gmail.com
>
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-- 
.0000. communication.
.0001. development.
.0010. strategy.
.0100. appeal.

JOSHUA M. ZEIDNER
IT Consultant

( 602 ) 490 8006
jjzeidner at gmail.com
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