Professional licensing
Gene Holmerud
plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Wed, 28 May 2003 20:00:39 -0700 (PDT)
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Vaughn:
Boy, am I with you on Jim Ervin! Even as a utility employee (actually I stayed the liberal renigade there) I could see how bad he was. Since then, he's gotten worse.
Next time at Stacomish, etc. we can banter about government roles, not withstanding my job at DOE.
Gene
Vaughn Treude <vltreude@deru.com> wrote:
Gene,
We don't disagree completely. I have nothing against using government as an
enforcer of last resort, in cases of fraud and gross negligence. And though
it's greatly abused at the current time (and needs to be reformed), the civil
court system provides a disincentive against recklessness. (I think that
regulated industries are sometimes shielded from legal action, and shouldn't
be. Neither should a EULA be an iron-clad protection.) Also, if a
third-party certification organization such as UL discovers others abusing
its trademark, it should be able to sue to stop it. Government is good at
using force, but not very good at setting technical standards. Also, as
we've seen many times in Arizona (most recently in the Corporation
Commission), too much power leads quickly to corruption.
Vaughn
On Wednesday 28 May 2003 01:25, you wrote:
> Vaughn:
>
> I too like to see this discussion. My opinion for the reason for the sad
> state of software quality (industry wide) is that very few developers (aka,
> programmers, engineers, well..) actually use what they produce. If they,
> and their managers, actually had to suffer thru it, things would improve
> tremendiously. Open Source has begun that process.
>
> I believe there was one comment about if and when someone dies because of a
> software bug. I recall a tanning machine causing a death, and a robot
> surgical process going bad.
>
> However, I believe we disagree on the role of goverment. Sure, volunteer
> organizations try to help. Industry organizations can set "best
> proactices", but only the authority of an arm of government has any teeth.
> No guarentee of a good outcome, but no teeth is a guarentee of no good.
> Astrology and UFOs are good examples of the gulibility and the difficulity
> of getting facts by the general public. We do form agencies via "Open
> Source" laws, yeah, mostly special interest groups, but I've spoken up in
> different arena (bicycle traffic laws).
>
> Gene
>
>
> Vaughn Treude wrote:
> Gene,
> I understand that Texas already has a licensing program for software
> engineers, and I imagine it will be here before long. That's one of the
> reason I'm looking into other possible sourcdes of income - not because I
> couldn't pass the exam, but I find it unacceptable that I'd need to ask the
> government for permission to earn a living and feed my family.
>
> Vaughn
>
> On Sunday 25 May 2003 00:41, you wrote:
> > The Board is concerned with the practice offered to the public, mostly
> > consulting endeavers. Major companies like public utilities support the
> > Board and encourage their engineers to become registered. This gives the
> > public recourse when deliverables (porducts, blueprints, etc.) are
> > faulty. There are lots of investigations and penalties.
> >
> > Having said that, producing software is an engineering process. How soon
> > Arizona, or more importantly, nation-wide, that that is recognized I have
> > no guess. However, I do remember doing a digital circuit on my exam for
> > Electrical Engineering.
> >
> > Gene
> >
> > Alan Dayley wrote:
> >
> > On Saturday 24 May 2003 08:27, Alan Dayley wrote:
> > > On Saturday 24 May 2003 07:22, William Lindley wrote:
> > > > Arizona Revised Statues
> > > > 32-123. Application for registration and certification
> > > >
> > > > (L00, ch 86, sec. 7)
> > > >
> > > > A. A person desiring to practice architecture, assaying, engineering,
> > > > geology, home inspection, landscape architecture or land surveying
> > > > shall make application for registration or certification on a form
> > > > prescribed by the board, subscribed under oath and accompanied by the
> > > > application fee.
> > >
> > > --[clip]--
> > >
> > > All of the above mentioned areas of competency can easily be tied to
> > > construction and safety of the constructed product. To me that
> > > indicates that the meaning of "engineering" as used above is structural
> > > engineering. It seems to me to be a reach to say software and even
> > > electrical (digital) engineering is covered by this article. If that
> > > were so, it could read "If you build or inspect buildings, highways,
> > > bridges, railroads, gardens or video games, you must be certified."
> > > Software just doen't seem to fit in that group.
> > >
> > > Any lawyers want to venture a non-binding clarification?
> >
> > At the Arizona State Board of Technical Registration web site, one can
> > search for registered professionals. At the bottom of the search page is
> > a selection for the technical discipline of the person you wish to search
> > for.
> >
> > http://www.btr.state.az.us/RegistrantSearch.asp
> >
> > That list box has "ENGINEER/ELECTRICAL" and "ENGINEER (GENERAL)" but
> > those are the closest disciplines listed that could be construed to
> > include a software engineer. Based on that non-binding, non-legal
> > definition :^), I would say that software engineering does not require
> > registration in the State of Arizona.
> >
> > Alan
> >
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<DIV>Vaughn:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Boy, am I with you on Jim Ervin! Even as a utility employee (actually I stayed the liberal renigade there) I could see how bad he was. Since then, he's gotten worse.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Next time at Stacomish, etc. we can banter about government roles, not withstanding my job at DOE.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Gene<BR><BR><B><I>Vaughn Treude <vltreude@deru.com></I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">Gene,<BR><BR>We don't disagree completely. I have nothing against using government as an <BR>enforcer of last resort, in cases of fraud and gross negligence. And though <BR>it's greatly abused at the current time (and needs to be reformed), the civil <BR>court system provides a disincentive against recklessness. (I think that <BR>regulated industries are sometimes shielded from legal action, and shouldn't <BR>be. Neither should a EULA be an iron-clad protection.) Also, if a <BR>third-party certification organization such as UL discovers others abusing <BR>its trademark, it should be able to sue to stop it. Government is good at <BR>using force, but not very good at setting technical standards. Also, as <BR>we've seen many times in Arizona (most recently in the Corporation <BR>Commission), too much power leads quickly to corruption.<BR><BR>Vaughn<BR><BR>On Wednesday 28 May 2003 01:25, you wrote:<BR>> Vaughn:<BR>><BR>> I too like to see this discussion. My opinion for the reason for the sad<BR>> state of software quality (industry wide) is that very few developers (aka,<BR>> programmers, engineers, well..) actually use what they produce. If they,<BR>> and their managers, actually had to suffer thru it, things would improve<BR>> tremendiously. Open Source has begun that process.<BR>><BR>> I believe there was one comment about if and when someone dies because of a<BR>> software bug. I recall a tanning machine causing a death, and a robot<BR>> surgical process going bad.<BR>><BR>> However, I believe we disagree on the role of goverment. Sure, volunteer<BR>> organizations try to help. Industry organizations can set "best<BR>> proactices", but only the authority of an arm of government has any teeth. <BR>> No guarentee of a good outcome, but no teeth is a guarentee of no good. <BR>> Astrology and UFOs are good examples of the gulibility and the difficulity<BR>> of getting facts by the general public. We do form agencies via "Open<BR>> Source" laws, yeah, mostly special interest groups, but I've spoken up in<BR>> different arena (bicycle traffic laws).<BR>><BR>> Gene<BR>><BR>><BR>> Vaughn Treude <VLTREUDE@DERU.COM>wrote:<BR>> Gene,<BR>> I understand that Texas already has a licensing program for software<BR>> engineers, and I imagine it will be here before long. That's one of the<BR>> reason I'm looking into other possible sourcdes of income - not because I<BR>> couldn't pass the exam, but I find it unacceptable that I'd need to ask the<BR>> government for permission to earn a living and feed my family.<BR>><BR>> Vaughn<BR>><BR>> On Sunday 25 May 2003 00:41, you wrote:<BR>> > The Board is concerned with the practice offered to the public, mostly<BR>> > consulting endeavers. Major companies like public utilities support the<BR>> > Board and encourage their engineers to become registered. This gives the<BR>> > public recourse when deliverables (porducts, blueprints, etc.) are<BR>> > faulty. There are lots of investigations and penalties.<BR>> ><BR>> > Having said that, producing software is an engineering process. How soon<BR>> > Arizona, or more importantly, nation-wide, that that is recognized I have<BR>> > no guess. However, I do remember doing a digital circuit on my exam for<BR>> > Electrical Engineering.<BR>> ><BR>> > Gene<BR>> ><BR>> > Alan Dayley wrote:<BR>> ><BR>> > On Saturday 24 May 2003 08:27, Alan Dayley wrote:<BR>> > > On Saturday 24 May 2003 07:22, William Lindley wrote:<BR>> > > > Arizona Revised Statues<BR>> > > > 32-123. Application for registration and certification<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > (L00, ch 86, sec. 7)<BR>> > > ><BR>> > > > A. A person desiring to practice architecture, assaying, engineering,<BR>> > > > geology, home inspection, landscape architecture or land surveying<BR>> > > > shall make application for registration or certification on a form<BR>> > > > prescribed by the board, subscribed under oath and accompanied by the<BR>> > > > application fee.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > --[clip]--<BR>> > ><BR>> > > All of the above mentioned areas of competency can easily be tied to<BR>> > > construction and safety of the constructed product. To me that<BR>> > > indicates that the meaning of "engineering" as used above is structural<BR>> > > engineering. It seems to me to be a reach to say software and even<BR>> > > electrical (digital) engineering is covered by this article. If that<BR>> > > were so, it could read "If you build or inspect buildings, highways,<BR>> > > bridges, railroads, gardens or video games, you must be certified."<BR>> > > Software just doen't seem to fit in that group.<BR>> > ><BR>> > > Any lawyers want to venture a non-binding clarification?<BR>> ><BR>> > At the Arizona State Board of Technical Registration web site, one can<BR>> > search for registered professionals. At the bottom of the search page is<BR>> > a selection for the technical discipline of the person you wish to search<BR>> > for.<BR>> ><BR>> > http://www.btr.state.az.us/RegistrantSearch.asp<BR>> ><BR>> > That list box has "ENGINEER/ELECTRICAL" and "ENGINEER (GENERAL)" but<BR>> > those are the closest disciplines listed that could be construed to<BR>> > include a software engineer. Based on that non-binding, non-legal<BR>> > definition :^), I would say that software engineering does not require<BR>> > registration in the State of Arizona.<BR>> ><BR>> > Alan<BR>> ><BR>> > ---------------------------------------------------<BR>> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us<BR>> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change you mail settings:<BR>> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss<BR>> ><BR>> > ---------------------------------<BR>> > Do you Yahoo!?<BR>> > The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.<BR>><BR>> ----------------------------------------<BR>> Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"; name="Attachment: 1"<BR>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>> Content-Description:<BR>> ----------------------------------------<BR>> ---------------------------------------------------<BR>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us<BR>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change you mail settings:<BR>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss<BR>><BR>> ---------------------------------<BR>> Do you Yahoo!?<BR>> Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).<BR><BR>----------------------------------------<BR>Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"; name="Attachment: 1"<BR>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit<BR>Content-Description: <BR>----------------------------------------<BR>---------------------------------------------------<BR>PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us<BR>To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change you mail settings:<BR>http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</BLOCKQUOTE><p><hr SIZE=1>
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