Mensan seeks work
Dr. Ghastly
plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
Sun, 10 Feb 2002 20:52:33 -0700
Oh, I wasn't offended, not really. Merely just stating that there are SOME
<30 that aren't completely clueless. However I DO agree most people out of
college with a degree are fairly clueless. I have met a lot of them. But
there are also a lot of people with decades of programming experience that
are either complete utter morons (yeah, I've seen them, they DO exist, heh)
, high and mighty "I am the greatest! I don't NEED to work with others"
types, or thier personality types are so anti-social that they can't
fucntion with others. The latter I can deal with, they're just solitary. The
other kinds just piss me off.
However, I DO have to say that I know some 14-16 yr old programmers that can
run circles around alot of 15+ year exp people. But those are just freaks of
nature.
But then, I don't have a degree yet. Working on it. DeVRY is just too
expensive. Bastards...
Also, where I work, they FORCE you to get certification. They make you get
certified in EVERYTHING. At least they pay for it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Toft" <george@georgetoft.com>
To: <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 8:27 PM
Subject: Re: Mensan seeks work
> Hi Doc,
>
> I've not seen your work. I don't know you. Do not be offended
> by what follows.
>
> Here's an example of the 40+ crowd:
> - An error manifests itself in the retrieval of data from the
> mainframe. He picks up the PRINTOUT (you know - ink on paper)
> of the code, and finds the error in about 15 minutes.
>
>
> Here are some examples of the under 30 crowd:
> - Write a java program that runs at 11:53pm via cron to process
> the day's transactions. Unfortunately, a [well documented] bug
> in the JDK (1.1.8) does not recognize Arizona's lack of Daylight
> Savings shift, so six months of the year the java program thinks
> it is 12:53am on the next day, and it cheefully tries to process
> all of the transactions that have not yet occured. This makes me
> wonder about the age of the programmer at Sun that didn't know
> that Arizona is not always in the Mountain Time Zone.
>
> - Let's retrieve the CGI query string and search it for a "?".
> Guess what happens if there isn't a query string: Null Pointer
> Exception. Java does not respond well to searching a null string.
> This 20-something never heard of the rule: Never trust anything
> another program sends you and didn't bother to add one line
> of code to see if the string was null.
>
> - Another 20-something violated a corollary of the above: Never,
> under any circumstance, trust a user. We service a Spanish
> speaking population. Guess what happens to LDAP when you feed it
> non IA-5 data, like an "n" with a tilde. It chokes with really
> geeky error message to the user. This guy never gave any thought
> to the Unicode character set, either.
>
> - An pair of almost 30-somethings wrote a program to accept data
> and pad it with spaces to fill the fields to form a fixed-length
> request header to a mainframe database. They assumed the User ID
> field was 10 characters. The program spec was 6-20 characters.
> Guess what happened when the first 11 character user ID was entered:
> It shifted all of the other fields right one space and the query
> blew up. I know we can figure out the faults here (not
> programming to the spec, not checking the data, improper
> testing).
>
> - Yet another 20-something (with 8 years experience) had no clue
> what the end of line terminator was for various operating systems.
> This was a shame since he was writing code on a Unix platform
> that wrote data for an NT system to process. Unix uses 0x0A and
> NT/DOS uses 0x0A0D. The NT system saw only one line in the file
> instead of the several hundred lines that the Unix program put in
> it. I tried to discuss this with him, and he had no clue what
> hexadecimal was. I had to send him references from the
> introductory section of the Java documentation that explained
> EOL terminators, and I had to send him hex dumps of good and bad
> data.
>
> - Another 20-something wrote a program that retrieved information
> from a database. If the query returned a null (data did not
> exist), or there was no connectivity to the database, the exact
> same error message was displayed. When she finally connected
> to the database, she kept getting the same error. Oh wait,
> there's no data in the database. That only took 4 days to isolate.
> It would have only taken a few hours to fix if she actually took a
> few minutes to create two different error messages.
>
> I taught networking for 4 semesters at the University of Hawaii.
> The first class was always spent teaching Binary Math so they
> could understand basic IP networking, like subnet masks. The
> school's curriculum did not teach binary math. I had almost
> 100 20-somethings go through my classes learn what a bit
> was, and what a bitwise AND was only because I made them.
> Otherwise, they would have graduated with a CIS degree without
> having ever performed any binary math.
>
> Doc, I sincerely hope you don't do this this level of work. When
> I was studying Computer Science, these pitfalls were preached in
> the 100 and 200 level classes. Maybe you and I came from a really
> good school, or perhaps the programmers I deal with came from
> bad schools. Maybe because I'm an old fart, that my school focused
> on the basics because that's all we had - OOP hadn't been invented
> yet. It seems that schools now are so focused on Web and OOP
> technologies that they don't have time to teach the basics like
> binary math, bit operations, and data checking. Maybe that's
> why the 20-something programmers at Microsoft still write code
> susceptable to buffer overflows - another pitfall that was
> crammed into my head in 1979.
>
> Or maybe I just expect too much from someone who has a degree in
> Computer Science (like knowing how a computer works), and I become
> very disappointed when that doesn't happen.
>
> I would like to say these are isolated incidents, but this is what
> I see every week. Different problem, different programmer, same
> recurring theme. I won't even go into the 24 year olds from
> [over]PriceWaterhouseCoopers with "5 years experience." OK, they
> count funny - I didn't know college homework assignments counted
> as experience.
>
> Even More Jaded and Searching for Some Alcohol,
>
> George
>
>
> "Dr. Ghastly" wrote:
> >
> > I'm Under 30. I don't consider myself clueless.
> >
> > ******************************************************************
> > Once you start down the dark path, forever will it
> > dominate your destiny, consume you it will...
> > ******************************************************************
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "George Toft" <george@georgetoft.com>
> > To: <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 5:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: Mensan seeks work
> >
> > > I'm 50-50 on that issue. Last job would hire based on ability,
regardless
> > > of paper. Current one requires paper to set foot inside. From what
I've
> > > seen of programmers, if they're under 30, they're still clueless,
degreed
> > > or not (flame suit on).
> > >
> > > George
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "Dr. Ghastly" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Not to mention that most places, my company especially, consider 2-3
> > years
> > > > experience equivalent to a degree.
> > > >
> > > > ******************************************************************
> > > > Once you start down the dark path, forever will it
> > > > dominate your destiny, consume you it will...
> > > > ******************************************************************
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "George Toft" <george@georgetoft.com>
> > > > To: <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2002 12:11 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Mensan seeks work
> > > >
> > > > > I second that. We just lost a guy because he claimed to have a
> > Bachelor's
> > > > > Degree when he did not. It only took them a week to figure it
out.
> > He
> > > > > was a contractor for six months, so he knew his stuff. When there
is
> > > > > an abundant supply of talent, you can be choosy. When there is a
> > scarcity
> > > > > of talent, you take whatever comes your way. You know where we
are
> > right
> > > > now. .
> > > > > .
> > > > >
> > > > > George
> > > > >
> > > > > "Dr. Ghastly" wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Uh, considering the work your looking for, I wouldn't consider
> > lying.
> > > > The
> > > > > > company I work for does EXENSIVE background checks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
******************************************************************
> > > > > > Once you start down the dark path, forever will it
> > > > > > dominate your destiny, consume you it will...
> > > > > >
******************************************************************
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: "Trent Shipley" <tcshipley@earthlink.net>
> > > > > > To: <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:14 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Mensan seeks work
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've seen really high numbers about lying on resumes. I
suspect
> > that
> > > > > > people
> > > > > > > usually get away with it. Of course, if you don't then it can
> > really
> > > > bite
> > > > > > > you in the ass--especially if you claim to be an experienced
> > surgeon
> > > > or
> > > > > > > litigator.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Actually, another alternative is to lie about your
> > > > > > > > experience if you really know your stuff, but that usually
comes
> > > > around
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > bite you in the ass.
> > > > > > > > ~M
> > > > > > > >
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