[azipa] Re: Contract Position Available

Sat, 24 Aug 2002 10:29:24 -0700

If $10/hour is the new reality then I'll change careers. I could do better 
delivering pizza for Domino's. So the only programmers they will get are the 
ones that could not qualify as a pizza delivery guy. That ought to work out 
well for them.

On Friday 23 August 2002 18:52, JD Austin wrote:
> > But, as you've stated, paying what the market will bear is what they are
> > doing.  We're just not all willing to agree that it might be the new
> > reality.
>
> I second what Brent said...
>
> All I can say is that they'll get what they pay for.
> That isn't enough for a professional to be a professional about it, it's
> an insult.  It is NOT a new reality.  Don't think anyone they hire at $10
> an hour will stay around to support it when market conditions get better.
> Sure they'll build it for $400 now.. later they'll pay $100 an hour to
> support it :)
>
> Hire them at $10 an hour and you'll get $10 an hour worth of their effort,
> and $0 worth of responsibility for what they produce.  They may build your
> application and it will work very well, but $10 isn't enough for them to
> take the additional effort to ensure that the application will scale
> beyond your current needs.  They will not perform adequate planning and
> design, or document it well enough so that you can bring in more down and
> out programmers to ruin your company.
>
> You won't get the data model (ER Diagram, entity descriptions, constraint
> descriptions, table instance charts,etc), UML class diagrams, flow charts,
> program flow diagrams,etc.  You'll get whatever they can throw together
> with the least amount of effort, because at that rate they will put far
> more effort into searching for another job than building your $400
> application.
>
> You can have it:
> FAST..
> CHEAP..
> RIGHT..
> PICK TWO.
>
> > I'd also say that there isn't necessarily a correlation between salary
> > and ability. I'm sure we've all worked with folks getting paid a whole
> > lot more money than we were that could only talk the talk, or were only
> > experts in their last environment.  You know the type - in charge of 50
> > servers in their last job, had no idea what went on outside of the
> > server room.
>
> Shhh... he's reading your email right this minute.. (grin)
>
> Probably the same way you had no idea clue went on inside the server room
> :) Sure they were experts on their last environment.. and will be experts
> on the current environment soon enough.  It wasn't his job to get involved
> with aspects outside of the server room.
>
> With responsibility comes they pay that goes with it.  Screw up 50 servers
> and the whole company is down, keep it all running perfectly and nobody
> understands why they need you :)  (When I did wrong I heard it ever, when
> I did right I heard it NEVER)   This is the guy that maintains the
> infrastructure to enable you to do your job, you'll only notice when he
> screws it up.
>
> Not to say there aren't some 'paper MCSE' people out there :) Clueless
> people don't last long.. they're soon promoted to management where they
> can do the least amount of damage.
>
> > Ray Zorz
> > Business Development Manager
> > NetShore Programming Corp.
> > 623-551-9422
> > mailto:rzorz@netshoreprogramming.com
> > www.netshoreprogramming.com
> > "High Value Programming"
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Brent.Erbe@metriscompanies.com
> > [mailto:Brent.Erbe@metriscompanies.com]
> > Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 9:41 AM
> > To: azipa@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re:RE: [azipa] Re: Contract Position Available
> >
> >
> >
> > ECON 101 + BUS 101
> >
> > It really comes down to how critical the project is and how one values
> > proper
> > development and successful implementation.  If my softball league needed
> > a
> > website, I wouldn't care if I found someone to do it for free (And, in
> > fact, we
> > have).  However, if my business needed a site that accepted credit cards
> > and
> > logged those transactions in a database, I would request quotes - then
> > take one
> > on the low end.
> >
> > In my experience, searching for contractors (in any business) that are
> > willing
> > to take far below market value just isn't worth it.  More often than
> > not, this
> > practice results in low quality product/service, low level talent/skill,
> > bad
> > morale, and/or high turnover.  Pay what the market will bear.  No More -
> > No
> > Less.
> >
> > The old adage is true: You get what you pay for.
> >
> > Brent Erbe
> > Metr1s Companies
> > brent.erbe@metriscompanies.com
> >
> >
> > ____________________Reply Separator____________________
> > Subject:    RE: [azipa] Re: Contract Position Available
> > Author:     "Sean M. Hays" <smh@seanhays.com>
> > Date:       8/23/02 12:43 AM
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ECON 101
> >
> > SUPPLY vs DEMAND
> >
> > If someone wants to offer a job for $5 an hour and someone else would be
> > happy to work for that amount, then we have two happy people.
> >
> > If someone wants to get paid $150 an hour and someone else is willing to
> > pay
> > that amount, again, we have two happy people.
> >
> > Pretty simple.
> >
> > Just throwing in my 3 cents => inflation.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: k_e_moeller [mailto:mkarl2@uswest.net]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 2:04 PM
> > To: azipa@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [azipa] Re: Contract Position Available
> >
> > --- In azipa@y..., "Sylvia Dahlby" <sylvia@a...> wrote:
> >>...For the under-employed and unemployed, it's not a good idea
> >> to turn one's nose down at an opportunity to keep working, sharpen
> >
> > your skills, and add to your resume even if it means a temporary pay
> > cut.
> >
> >> Sylvia Dahlby
> >>
> >> SmartSearch Online
> >> Staffing management software from APS, Inc.
> >>
> >> http://www.smartsearchonline.com
> >
> > Well, Sylvia, I sure wouldn't want YOU searching for my next
> > position.  Your motives and sympathies are purely on the beleaguered
> > employer's side, enthusiastically recommending that professionals
> > knuckle under to low offers and resign themselves to earning a barely-
> > living wage.
> >
> > I hope that professionals reading this remember the economic
> > advantage that employers and their hiring lackeys are attempting to
> > impose on the backs of the people actually performing the work.
> >
> > I wonder, Sylvia, how long you and YOUR household could stay afloat at
> > $10.00 per hour?
> >
> > Karl Moeller Tucson
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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