Advice

Wed, 21 Mar 2001 14:33:41 -0700

--------------930504572AFDFA23880D35EF
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Yes, for the most part it's true that a degree helps and it doesn't matter so much what your degree is in.  Mine is EE, and I've been
out of hardware design for so long that I woulnd't dare apply for a job in that.  There was one situtation where I was working for a
client who got a new software manager who, despite my resume and my show of enthusiasm, declined to hire me for any of their new
projects.  He had a higher-level CS degree, so maybe he didn't want someone without an "official" software diploma.

Then again, it could have been something entirely different.  I'd heard rumors that the company's principal investor was griping about
how much they'd spent on software, and I was one of their two main software guys--both of us contractors.  I suspect that I may have
been made a scapegoat (as was the previous consultant that worked on the same product line) because of bad management decisions.  I
did, after all, deliver them the programs that they asked for.  That's one of the hazards of being an independent, I guess.

Vaughn Treude

"Furmanek, Greg" wrote:

> I have to say you defiantly have a point in there.
>
> Personally I had someone refuse me employment on the
> basis of (lack of) education.  She hired some shmucks
> with papers.  They F**ked up bunch of stuff which
> I am currently fixing.  The fact remains paper is paper
> and *many* companies will not even consider a candidate
> with out one.
>
> Greg
>
> -> -----Original Message-----
> -> From: Alan Dayley [mailto:adayley@adtron.com]
> -> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 12:49 PM
> -> To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> -> Subject: RE: Advice
> ->
> ->
> ->
> -> In my experience getting a bachelor's degree in SOMETHING
> -> will open many
> -> employment doors that will otherwise stay shut.  This is
> -> especially true in
> -> a downturn economy.  While I use very little of the actual
> -> factual stuff of
> -> my EE degree on a daily basis and haven't for years, I would
> -> not be working
> -> where I am now at the salary I have now without the paper.
> ->
> -> Studies show that when a potential employer picks up your
> -> resume to review
> -> it, he or she will decide in 7 seconds, on average, whether
> -> or not to keep
> -> looking at it.  Many times that 7 seconds is spent looking
> -> at education and
> -> certifications.  If they don't like what they see, the
> -> resume goes to the
> -> "round file."
> ->
> -> In many ways all a degree proves is that you can follow a
> -> set of rules.
> -> But, many employers won't even look at you seriously unless
> -> you have that
> -> blessed piece of paper.
> ->
> -> However, YMMV.
> ->
> -> Alan
> ->
> -> At 11:57 AM 3/21/01 -0700, you wrote:
> -> >I am going to disagree on one point. You don't necessarily
> -> need to get a CS
> -> >degree. Go to college for something you want to learn, and
> -> that you can't
> -> >easily teach yourself. I got a microbiology degree and
> -> after I graduated I
> -> >was hired as a Unix sysadmin. If you are going to do
> -> computers as a job then
> -> >go to school for it. If computers is your passion and you
> -> want to get paid
> -> >for it, go to school for another one of your interests and gain work
> -> >experience (school help desk, etc). Just my opinion though
> -> and I am sure
> -> >that many will disagree.
> -> >
> -> >Joel Dudley
> -> >Unix System Administrator
> -> >DevelopOnline.com
> -> >----------------------------------------
> -> >"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power
> -> of reason, the
> -> >story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of
> -> ignorance; he is
> -> >about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over
> -> the final rock,
> -> >he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been
> -> sitting there for
> -> >centuries."
> -> >- Dr. Robert Jastrow, Founder Goddard Space Flight Institute
> -> >
> -> >
> -> >
> -> >-----Original Message-----
> -> >From: Deepak Saxena [mailto:deepak@csociety.purdue.edu]
> -> >Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 11:07 AM
> -> >To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> -> >Subject: Re: Advice
> -> >
> -> >
> -> >
> -> >My opinions (which i will probably get flamed for)
> -> >
> -> >1) Get some cheap hardware and start learning how to do
> -> things on your
> -> >   own as was mentioned before
> -> >2) With those skills get an entry level job somewhere
> -> >3) Save money and get a degree in CS, but while getting a
> -> degree in CS
> -> >   make sure you take some classes in low level stuff like
> -> architecture.
> -> >   Or if a full college degree is not what you're
> -> interesested in, just
> -> >   take the relevant classes or pick up a book.  The key is don't
> -> >   just learn how to setup a network and a web server, etc,
> -> learn how
> -> >   this stuff works.
> -> >
> -> >   Why step 3 you make ask? b/c IMHO having a good understanding of
> -> >   how computers work from top to bottom instead of just how to
> -> >   use the tools to do the job will let you do your job much better.
> -> >   It will also make you much more flexible down the road and I
> -> >   think it makes it easier to pick up new technologuies.
> -> >   People may disagree with this, but I have seen enough IT people
> -> >   (both Windows and Un*x) who have NO CLUE about how
> -> computers actually
> -> >   works that I would highly reccomend as much as you can about
> -> >   computers, not just high level networking stuff.
> -> >
> -> >~Deepak
> -> >
> -> >On Mar 21 2001, at 10:02, Tyler Hall was caught saying:
> -> >> Greetings,
> -> >>
> -> >> I need your guy's advice,  I'm hoping to get into the
> -> field of networking
> -> >in the near future.  Such as, managing a school or a
> -> company's network.
> -> >I'm going to school right now at Chandler-Gilbert Community
> -> College, to get
> -> >this stupid degree in "Microsoft Networking"  I think it's
> -> a waste of my
> -> >time and money.   I'm looking for someone that is in that
> -> field, and would
> -> >be willing to tell me, what steps I should take.  I
> -> currently just graduated
> -> >from high school, so i'm still young.   Any advice would be
> -> helpful.
> -> >>
> -> >> Please reply privately, so we don't disturb the public list :)
> -> >>
> -> >> Tyler Hall
> -> >>
> -> >> "Goddam it, you'll never get the Purple Heart hiding in a
> -> foxhole! Follow
> -> >me!"
> -> >> - Captain Henry P. "Jim" Crowe (Guadalcanal, January 13, 1943)
> -> >
> -> >--
> -> >Deepak Saxena - deepak@csociety.purdue.edu - phone://602.790.0500
> -> >
> -> >Code Monkey, MontaVista Software, Inc. - THE Embedded Linux Experts
> -> >
> -> >call me 'evil' call me 'tide is on your side' anything that you want
> -> >anybody knows you can conjure anything by the dark of the moon
> -> >  - Tori Amos, "Suede"
> -> >
> -> >________________________________________________
> -> >See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your
> -> mail doesn't post
> -> >to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> -> >
> -> >Plug-discuss mailing list  -  Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> -> >http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> -> >
> -> >________________________________________________
> -> >See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your
> -> mail doesn't
> -> post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
> -> >
> -> >Plug-discuss mailing list  -  Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> -> >http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> -> >
> -> >
> -> >
> -> /------------------------------------------
> -> |Alan Dayley             www.adtron.com
> -> |Software Engineer       602-735-0300 x331
> -> |ADayley@adtron.com
> -> |
> -> |Adtron Corporation
> -> |3710 E. University Drive, Suite 5
> -> |Phoenix, AZ  85034
> -> \-------------------------------------------
> ->
> ->
> -> ________________________________________________
> -> See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your
> -> mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape
> -> to write mail.
> ->
> -> Plug-discuss mailing list  -  Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> -> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
> ->
>
> "The sender believes that this E-mail and any attachments were free of any
> virus, worm, Trojan horse, and/or malicious code when sent.  This message
> and its attachments could have been infected during transmission.  By
> reading the message and opening any attachments, the recipient accepts full
> responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and
> other defects.  The sender's employer is not liable for any loss or damage
> arising in any way from this message or its attachments."
>
> ________________________________________________
> See http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml if your mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
>
> Plug-discuss mailing list  -  Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss

--
*****************
Nakota Software, Inc.
Custom Industrial Software Development

--------------930504572AFDFA23880D35EF
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Yes, for the most part it's true that a degree helps and it doesn't matter
so much what your degree is in.&nbsp; Mine is EE, and I've been out of
hardware design for so long that I woulnd't dare apply for a job in that.&nbsp;
There was one situtation where I was working for a client who got a new
software manager who, despite my resume and my show of enthusiasm, declined
to hire me for any of their new projects.&nbsp; He had a higher-level CS
degree, so maybe he didn't want someone without an "official" software
diploma.
Then again, it could have been something entirely different.&nbsp; I'd
heard rumors that the company's principal investor was griping about how
much they'd spent on software, and I was one of their two main software
guys--both of us contractors.&nbsp; I suspect that I may have been made
a scapegoat (as was the previous consultant that worked on the same product
line) because of bad management decisions.&nbsp; I did, after all, deliver
them the programs that they asked for.&nbsp; That's one of the hazards
of being an independent, I guess.
Vaughn Treude
 &nbsp;
 &nbsp;
 &nbsp;
"Furmanek, Greg" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>I have to say you defiantly have a point in there.
Personally I had someone refuse me employment on the
 basis of (lack of) education.&nbsp; She hired some shmucks
 with papers.&nbsp; They F**ked up bunch of stuff which
 I am currently fixing.&nbsp; The fact remains paper is paper
 and *many* companies will not even consider a candidate
 with out one.
Greg
-> -----Original Message-----
 -> From: Alan Dayley [<a href="mailto:adayley@adtron.com">mailto:adayley@adtron.com</a>]
 -> Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 12:49 PM
 -> To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
 -> Subject: RE: Advice
 ->
 ->
 ->
 -> In my experience getting a bachelor's degree in SOMETHING
 -> will open many
 -> employment doors that will otherwise stay shut.&nbsp; This is
 -> especially true in
 -> a downturn economy.&nbsp; While I use very little of the actual
 -> factual stuff of
 -> my EE degree on a daily basis and haven't for years, I would
 -> not be working
 -> where I am now at the salary I have now without the paper.
 ->
 -> Studies show that when a potential employer picks up your
 -> resume to review
 -> it, he or she will decide in 7 seconds, on average, whether
 -> or not to keep
 -> looking at it.&nbsp; Many times that 7 seconds is spent looking
 -> at education and
 -> certifications.&nbsp; If they don't like what they see, the
 -> resume goes to the
 -> "round file."
 ->
 -> In many ways all a degree proves is that you can follow a
 -> set of rules.
 -> But, many employers won't even look at you seriously unless
 -> you have that
 -> blessed piece of paper.
 ->
 -> However, YMMV.
 ->
 -> Alan
 ->
 -> At 11:57 AM 3/21/01 -0700, you wrote:
 -> >I am going to disagree on one point. You don't necessarily
 -> need to get a CS
 -> >degree. Go to college for something you want to learn, and
 -> that you can't
 -> >easily teach yourself. I got a microbiology degree and
 -> after I graduated I
 -> >was hired as a Unix sysadmin. If you are going to do
 -> computers as a job then
 -> >go to school for it. If computers is your passion and you
 -> want to get paid
 -> >for it, go to school for another one of your interests and gain
work
 -> >experience (school help desk, etc). Just my opinion though
 -> and I am sure
 -> >that many will disagree.
 -> >
 -> >Joel Dudley
 -> >Unix System Administrator
 -> >DevelopOnline.com
 -> >----------------------------------------
 -> >"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power
 -> of reason, the
 -> >story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of
 -> ignorance; he is
 -> >about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over
 -> the final rock,
 -> >he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been
 -> sitting there for
 -> >centuries."
 -> >- Dr. Robert Jastrow, Founder Goddard Space Flight Institute
 -> >
 -> >
 -> >
 -> >-----Original Message-----
 -> >From: Deepak Saxena [<a href="mailto:deepak@csociety.purdue.edu">mailto:deepak@csociety.purdue.edu</a>]
 -> >Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2001 11:07 AM
 -> >To: plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
 -> >Subject: Re: Advice
 -> >
 -> >
 -> >
 -> >My opinions (which i will probably get flamed for)
 -> >
 -> >1) Get some cheap hardware and start learning how to do
 -> things on your
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; own as was mentioned before
 -> >2) With those skills get an entry level job somewhere
 -> >3) Save money and get a degree in CS, but while getting a
 -> degree in CS
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; make sure you take some classes in low level stuff
like
 -> architecture.
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; Or if a full college degree is not what you're
 -> interesested in, just
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; take the relevant classes or pick up a book.&nbsp;
The key is don't
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; just learn how to setup a network and a web server,
etc,
 -> learn how
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; this stuff works.
 -> >
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; Why step 3 you make ask? b/c IMHO having a good understanding
of
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; how computers work from top to bottom instead of just
how to
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; use the tools to do the job will let you do your job
much better.
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; It will also make you much more flexible down the
road and I
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; think it makes it easier to pick up new technologuies.
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; People may disagree with this, but I have seen enough
IT people
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; (both Windows and Un*x) who have NO CLUE about how
 -> computers actually
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; works that I would highly reccomend as much as you
can about
 -> >&nbsp;&nbsp; computers, not just high level networking stuff.
 -> >
 -> >~Deepak
 -> >
 -> >On Mar 21 2001, at 10:02, Tyler Hall was caught saying:
 -> >> Greetings,
 -> >>
 -> >> I need your guy's advice,&nbsp; I'm hoping to get into the
 -> field of networking
 -> >in the near future.&nbsp; Such as, managing a school or a
 -> company's network.
 -> >I'm going to school right now at Chandler-Gilbert Community
 -> College, to get
 -> >this stupid degree in "Microsoft Networking"&nbsp; I think it's
 -> a waste of my
 -> >time and money.&nbsp;&nbsp; I'm looking for someone that is in
that
 -> field, and would
 -> >be willing to tell me, what steps I should take.&nbsp; I
 -> currently just graduated
 -> >from high school, so i'm still young.&nbsp;&nbsp; Any advice would
be
 -> helpful.
 -> >>
 -> >> Please reply privately, so we don't disturb the public list :)
 -> >>
 -> >> Tyler Hall
 -> >>
 -> >> "Goddam it, you'll never get the Purple Heart hiding in a
 -> foxhole! Follow
 -> >me!"
 -> >> - Captain Henry P. "Jim" Crowe (Guadalcanal, January 13, 1943)
 -> >
 -> >--
 -> >Deepak Saxena - deepak@csociety.purdue.edu - phone://602.790.0500
 -> >
 -> >Code Monkey, MontaVista Software, Inc. - THE Embedded Linux Experts
 -> >
 -> >call me 'evil' call me 'tide is on your side' anything that you
want
 -> >anybody knows you can conjure anything by the dark of the moon
 -> >&nbsp; - Tori Amos, "Suede"
 -> >
 -> >________________________________________________
 -> >See <a href="http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</a>
if your
 -> mail doesn't post
 -> >to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
 -> >
 -> >Plug-discuss mailing list&nbsp; -&nbsp; Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
 -> ><a href="http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a>
 -> >
 -> >________________________________________________
 -> >See <a href="http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</a>
if your
 -> mail doesn't
 -> post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write mail.
 -> >
 -> >Plug-discuss mailing list&nbsp; -&nbsp; Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
 -> ><a href="http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a>
 -> >
 -> >
 -> >
 -> /------------------------------------------
 -> |Alan Dayley&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
www.adtron.com
 -> |Software Engineer&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 602-735-0300
x331
 -> |ADayley@adtron.com
 -> |
 -> |Adtron Corporation
 -> |3710 E. University Drive, Suite 5
 -> |Phoenix, AZ&nbsp; 85034
 -> \-------------------------------------------
 ->
 ->
 -> ________________________________________________
 -> See <a href="http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</a>
if your
 -> mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape
 -> to write mail.
 ->
 -> Plug-discuss mailing list&nbsp; -&nbsp; Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
 -> <a href="http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a>
 ->
"The sender believes that this E-mail and any attachments were free
of any
 virus, worm, Trojan horse, and/or malicious code when sent.&nbsp; This
message
 and its attachments could have been infected during transmission.&nbsp;
By
 reading the message and opening any attachments, the recipient accepts
full
 responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses
and
 other defects.&nbsp; The sender's employer is not liable for any loss
or damage
 arising in any way from this message or its attachments."
________________________________________________
 See <a href="http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml">http://PLUG.phoenix.az.us/navigator-mail.shtml</a>
if your mail doesn't post to the list quickly and you use Netscape to write
mail.
Plug-discuss mailing list&nbsp; -&nbsp; Plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
 <a href="http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss">http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss</a></blockquote>

<pre>--&nbsp;
*****************
Nakota Software, Inc.
Custom Industrial Software Development</pre>
&nbsp;</html>

--------------930504572AFDFA23880D35EF--