FW: Re: Introductions

Sat, 21 Jul 2001 22:16:21 -0700

No, I'm absolutely not offended. I just didn't want to
bore everyone else by droning on about the same subject.

My wife is kind of laughing at me right now saying "what
do you want when you go knocking around like a bowling 
ball in other peoples alley" by spouting off with the
Brain Damage stuff.

I also should use a better choice of words, and didn't
mean to insult anyone.

But now I'm curious, its been a while since I've tried
it. A the next westside meeting I'll ask around about
the latest Debian release and its installation process.
Maybe its time to try it again.

Garrett Ellis wrote:
> 
> Douglas, (cc:plug)
> 
> I hadn't written this with the intent of making
> direct/indirect attacks on anyone. My choice of words
> could definitely have been better. At the time I was
> writing the post I didn't see at all how it could be
> taken as a personal attack, since I definitely was not
> trying to make one. Looking at it now it's a bit
> clearer to me how it could be taken as such. Thank you
> for bringing this to my attention.
> 
> There was no personal intent to slam/rip/deface anyone
> that uses Linux (for whatever reason). In the post I
> included in parentheses "(nothing wrong with
> ignorance)" thinking that may alert
> non-administrators/techs/geeks/whatever that I wasn't
> slamming them personally. Looking back now I can see
> that I should have gone to greater efforts to reword
> my explanations to remove the need for "(nothing wrong
> with ignorance)". If anyone feels offended by the post
> that I made, I am indeed sorry as I did not want to
> insult you. I tend to get carried away when expressing
> my views in a situation.
> 
> To more briefly state my points made in the previous
> post:
> 
> I feel that the Redhat distribution is suitable for
> those who
> 1) Have little to no desire or time for learning the
> system save for a few [this]configurator scripts.
> 2) Aren't installing linux to use linux; but are
> installing it to use an application, like Quake.
> 3) Don't have the time to deal with challenges of
> learning the system.
> 
> I feel that the Debian distribution is suited for
> those who
> 1) Want to learn how to use the OS and tools that come
> with it.
> 2) Want to know what's really going on underneath
> everything.
> 3) Want a strong, quick, and stable system that they
> can leave unattended for days at a time.
> 4) Don't mind a difficult challenge in the beginning
> while they learn where everything is.
> 
> I know your letter to me was a private one. I hope
> that my action of cc'ing PLUG on the list does not
> offend you. I am cc'ing PLUG in the hopes that anyone
> that may have been taken back by my original post can
> also see what I have said.
> 
> Regards,
> Garrett Ellis
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: djerome@primenet.com
> [mailto:djerome@primenet.com] On Behalf Of Douglas
> Jerome
> Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 3:37 PM
> To: garrett_ellis@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: Introductions
> 
> Garrett:
> 
> The personal insinuations of "impatient Windows user",
> "hax0r", and "no desire to learn" aren't really called
> for.
> 
> I missed the original post; whatever his intentions
> for using Linux, he asks for advice and gets it from
> all over. Great. He can sort it out and do what he
> thinks best. I in no way fault anyone for giving him
> the advice they can.
> 
> Why make side attacks on people who's advice is
> different than yours, and do it in a public forum
> intended for advocacy? This doesn't help.
> 
> You've just ripped everyone who doesn't want to have
> learn and do "under the hood" syadmin activities, and
> did it in a public forum sought by novices. What about
> me, a software engineer, trying to use Linux for
> software development in really interestings ways, and
> my bosses who see this stuff? I just want to be able
> to make the network work right for me; the
> configuration scripts and GUIs really save my time so
> I can do the things I'm good at. What about others
> like me who are new to Linux; you've just put them in
> their place: haX0r land. What about my siste, a
> commercial artist, who wants to use GIMP. She in no
> way wants to deal with the stuff you like. You've just
> put her in her place: "impatient Windows user" who
> "should think twice about what they're doing and just
> stick with their Windows install."
> 
> There is a whole world of people out there that could
> make good use of Linux.
> 
> I just want to ask you to please remember that, and,
> in public forums used for helping novices, please
> refrain from ridiculing these people, and others who
> offer their honest $0.02 of advice.
> 
> Garrett Ellis wrote:
> >
> > Debian 2.2r3's installer runs very smoothly. All
> that's required of
> > the user is to read what's on the screen before
> pressing enter a
> > zillion times like your everyday impatient Windows
> user. And if
> > someone isn't willing and understanding that they
> will be learning a
> > brand new system when they first switch to linux,
> then that person
> > should think twice about what they're doing and just
> stick with their
> > Windows install.
> >
> > I think the best way to say it is, "Debian is not
> for beginners who
> > are expecting Linux to be just like Windows". It
> could truthfully be
> > said that if someone wants to learn Linux to be an
> effective
> > sysadmin/technician, they should start with Debian.
> Debian makes you
> > do a lot of things manually and as a result, you
> learn more about how
> > the system works without having it wrapped up in
> pretty conf scripts.
> > The *configurator scripts are there for the people
> that don't know
> > what they are doing (nothing wrong with ignorance),
> and the sysadmin
> > is there for when those scripts fail to do their
> job. "Oh no!
> > Xconfigurator doesn't work! Whatever shall I do?
> Wherever shall I go?"
> > If you want to be one of the people that fixes that
> and does it well,
> > I believe you should start with Debian.
> >
> > If you want to have Linux just for playing around or
> maybe write a bit
> > of code, or just so you can tell your friends how
> much of a hax0r you
> > are because you discovered the NETCONF and set up
> your linux box
> > without any help from anyone, then you should use
> Mandrake or RedHat.
> > Those distributions seem targeted for (and created
> by.. <g>) those who
> > really don't know too much about Linux and have
> little to no desire to
> > learn.
> >
> > Other than that, and my continuing praise for
> Debian's speed,
> > reliability, and consistency across distributions, I
> will cease
> > contributing to the distribution argument.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:   Douglas Jerome [SMTP:jerome@primenet.com]
> > Sent:   Friday, July 20, 2001 12:14 AM
> > To:     plug-discuss@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
> > Subject:        Re: Introductions
> >
> > OK, I just joined this list, but I'll jump right in.
> >
> > I'm an experienced s/w engineer; I've been hacking
> on
> > unices for 10 years, and I've been using various
> Linux for several
> > years.
> >
> > The Debian installer is a mess. It is not for a
> beginner. apt-get is
> > great when you learn it, but I've seen too many
> people give up on
> > Linux because they tried Debian first.
> >
> > If someone who worked for me made a program like the
> last Debian
> > installer I tried, I'd fire him. Installtion options
> that conflict
> > with each other, and let you do just that, are brain
> damage. Having to
> > go through an incredibly long rolling command line
> configuration of
> > everything that you installed (even if you dont want
> to
> > configure/startup them) with obscure options is
> brain damage. Pardon
> > me, but if I did that to my customers then I would
> be fired.
> >
> > There's absolutely nothing about redhat or mandrake
> that keeps anyone
> > from "getting under the hood". And they are a WHOLE
> HECK OF A LOT
> > easier for a beginner to install.
> >
> > --
> > Douglas Jerome
> > http://www.primenet.com/~jerome
> http://hackerlabs.sourceforge.net
> > ________________________________________________
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> >
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> --
> Douglas Jerome
> http://www.primenet.com/~jerome
> http://hackerlabs.sourceforge.net
> 
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-- 
Douglas Jerome
http://www.primenet.com/~jerome
http://hackerlabs.sourceforge.net