Guinea Pigs [was] Re: EPP [snip]
Joseph Sinclair
plug-devel@lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us
Mon Mar 14 20:53:02 2005
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Trent Shipley wrote:
> <<SNIP>>
>
>>ERP is [just] an inventory/accounting activity that doesn't mesh well with
>>events planning
>>
>>
>
>My understanding of ERPM is more inclusive. It is really database integration
>across the enterprise.
>
>
ERP is nothing close to enterprise-wide database integration. It really
is just resource planning/management. Some of the ERP vendors have
additional software that integrates out-of-box (sort of) with their ERP
module(s) (Peoplesoft, Oracle), but those are add-ons, not the ERP
system itself. I've yet to see any large corporation that actually has
all of their enterprise databases integrated, in fact, I've yet to see
one with even half that goal met.
>>Integrating with ERP would just impose constraints without
>>providing any benefit in this case. None of the common functionality in
>>ERP/ERM will support any normal function in the event planning space,
>>unless the company is in the business of providing events, in which case
>>a relatively simple link into any existing ERP system would be
>>appropriate and sufficient.
>>
>>
>
>In my experience, there is NO SUCH THING as a "simple" link into an existing
>ERPM. Peoplesoft, at least, doesn't do a good job of hiding its data layer.
>There is no neat API. Usually you have to hack directly into the database
>layer that is enormous and unspeakably complex.
>
>
You're right, to an extent, but we're not going to get any help in that
arena by hooking into a particular platform either. The idea I
expressed is that our side of the link should be pretty simple, not that
the link interface on the other side would be simple, it won't, no
matter what platform we choose, because the major ERP vendors are
proprietary systems that create very high artificial barriers to entry
by hiding and obscuring their internal API's.
Note, there are open-technology ERP systems, but they're not widely used
at this point. If they ever do become more widespread, then we can
certainly look at including a strong integration to such systems as a
module in the base distribution of our system.
><<SNIP>>
>
>
>Which brings us back to how I am going to persuade prospective informants to
>give me access and interviews?
>
>How am I going to present myself?
>How am I to present the project?
>How am I to pay for lunch (for example)?
> (I understand that contributions to AZOTO are still not tax deductible.)
>Confidentiality?
>Can interviewees expect to get software out of this?
>
>
>
This goes back to my original point that there are no resources to
conduct in-depth research, we have people and ideas, and that's pretty
much it. To whit:
You present yourself as a volunteer working on a project
You present the project as an open-source initiative to create event
planning software
You pay for anything you choose to pay for yourself, the project has
no funds, and isn't likely to have any for some time.
Anyone who wants an NDA on their conversations isn't someone we want
to interview, no confidentiality (although we do respect individual
privacy, and names/personal data will be excised on request).
The software will be GPL, anyone who wants it will have access to
the community builds and to the full source code.
> <<SNIP>>
>
>> c) An open-technology conference
>> d) An open-technology symposium
>>
>>
>
>What is the difference between #c and #d
>
>
A conference has speakers presenting on topics of interest, usually with
slideshow-type presentations
A symposium has speakers presenting on published papers, usually to an
academic audience Symposium presentations are often round-table Q&A,
rather than direct presentations.
>> e) An open-technology meet-and-greet
>>
>>
>
>What is #e?
>
>
A loose gathering of open-technology advocates/glitterati/rising stars,
etc... with the primary intent to meet new people with shared interests,
think a mega version of the monthly stammtisch
>> f) An open-technology exposition
>>
>>
>
>How is #b different from #f
>
>
An exposition is a commercial event where vendors pay for booths to
present their vision of, in this case, open technology. CEBIT is a good
example of an exposition. Expositions are occasionally combined with
conferences.
><<SNIP>>
>
>Are these AZOTO "needs" or AZOTO "dreams".
>
>Since PLUG does monthly InstallFests we have experienced domain experts. They
>have ideas, we can research live InstallFests and come up with our own ideas.
>Then we can talk to actual people with domain experience to collaberatively
>build and deliver product.
>
>Beyond that we have a cart-then-horse problem. It is generally better to have
>a Mega-Installfest THEN produce automation for Mega-Installfests than to do
>the reverse, namely produce automation based on speculation about
>Mega-Installfests then have a Mega-Installfest. (It might, however, be
>minimally acceptable to produce automation in parallel with the production of
>an initial Mega-Installfest.)
>
>In short, we cannot build event planning software for AZOTO/PLUG needs because
>AZOTO/PLUG have little need for event planning software and even less
>relevant domain expertise.
>
>We pretty much NEED to find alternative un-customers who actually plan events
>and try to produce software that they like. Then AZOTO/PLUG can try using
>the same software when materializing their vaporous event productions. After
>they have experience with planning an event and the blandly named Event
>Planner Project then AZOTO/PLUG can provide useful input for EPP.
>
AZOTO expresses them as needs, I have no intention of questioning their
assessment in this regard.
If you, or anyone else, wishes to bring in additional domain experts to
assist in developing and prioritizing user stories, I'm happy to have
the volunteers. This is a VOLUNTEER project, if someone wants to do
something that will help the project, then post on the list what you
want to do, and, unless someone brings up a cogent objection, go ahead
and do it.
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Trent Shipley wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid200503121954.57004.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite"><<SNIP>><br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">ERP is [just] an inventory/accounting activity that doesn't mesh well with
events planning
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
My understanding of ERPM is more inclusive. It is really database integration
across the enterprise.
</pre>
</blockquote>
ERP is nothing close to enterprise-wide database integration. It
really is just resource planning/management. Some of the ERP vendors
have additional software that integrates out-of-box (sort of) with
their ERP module(s) (Peoplesoft, Oracle), but those are add-ons, not
the ERP system itself. I've yet to see any large corporation that
actually has all of their enterprise databases integrated, in fact,
I've yet to see one with even half that goal met.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid200503121954.57004.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Integrating with ERP would just impose constraints without
providing any benefit in this case. None of the common functionality in
ERP/ERM will support any normal function in the event planning space,
unless the company is in the business of providing events, in which case
a relatively simple link into any existing ERP system would be
appropriate and sufficient.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
In my experience, there is NO SUCH THING as a "simple" link into an existing
ERPM. Peoplesoft, at least, doesn't do a good job of hiding its data layer.
There is no neat API. Usually you have to hack directly into the database
layer that is enormous and unspeakably complex.
</pre>
</blockquote>
You're right, to an extent, but we're not going to get any help in that
arena by hooking into a particular platform either. The idea I
expressed is that our side of the link should be pretty simple, not
that the link interface on the other side would be simple, it won't, no
matter what platform we choose, because the major ERP vendors are
proprietary systems that create very high artificial barriers to entry
by hiding and obscuring their internal API's.<br>
Note, there are open-technology ERP systems, but they're not widely
used at this point. If they ever do become more widespread, then we
can certainly look at including a strong integration to such systems as
a module in the base distribution of our system.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid200503121954.57004.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap=""><<SNIP>>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote cite="mid200503121954.57004.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Which brings us back to how I am going to persuade prospective informants to
give me access and interviews?
How am I going to present myself?
How am I to present the project?
How am I to pay for lunch (for example)?
(I understand that contributions to AZOTO are still not tax deductible.)
Confidentiality?
Can interviewees expect to get software out of this?
</pre>
</blockquote>
This goes back to my original point that there are no resources to
conduct in-depth research, we have people and ideas, and that's pretty
much it. To whit:<br>
You present yourself as a volunteer working on a project<br>
You present the project as an open-source initiative to create
event planning software<br>
You pay for anything you choose to pay for yourself, the project
has no funds, and isn't likely to have any for some time.<br>
Anyone who wants an NDA on their conversations isn't someone we
want to interview, no confidentiality (although we do respect
individual privacy, and names/personal data will be excised on request).<br>
The software will be GPL, anyone who wants it will have access to
the community builds and to the full source code.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid200503121954.57004.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite"><<SNIP>>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> c) An open-technology conference
d) An open-technology symposium
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
What is the difference between #c and #d
</pre>
</blockquote>
A conference has speakers presenting on topics of interest, usually
with slideshow-type presentations<br>
A symposium has speakers presenting on published papers, usually to an
academic audience Symposium presentations are often round-table
Q&A, rather than direct presentations.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid200503121954.57004.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> e) An open-technology meet-and-greet
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
What is #e?
</pre>
</blockquote>
A loose gathering of open-technology advocates/glitterati/rising stars,
etc... with the primary intent to meet new people with shared
interests, think a mega version of the monthly stammtisch<br>
<blockquote cite="mid200503121954.57004.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> f) An open-technology exposition
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
How is #b different from #f
</pre>
</blockquote>
An exposition is a commercial event where vendors pay for booths to
present their vision of, in this case, open technology. CEBIT is a
good example of an exposition. Expositions are occasionally combined
with conferences.<br>
<blockquote cite="mid200503121954.57004.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap=""><<SNIP>></pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote cite="mid200503121954.57004.tshipley@deru.com" type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Are these AZOTO "needs" or AZOTO "dreams".
Since PLUG does monthly InstallFests we have experienced domain experts. They
have ideas, we can research live InstallFests and come up with our own ideas.
Then we can talk to actual people with domain experience to collaberatively
build and deliver product.
Beyond that we have a cart-then-horse problem. It is generally better to have
a Mega-Installfest THEN produce automation for Mega-Installfests than to do
the reverse, namely produce automation based on speculation about
Mega-Installfests then have a Mega-Installfest. (It might, however, be
minimally acceptable to produce automation in parallel with the production of
an initial Mega-Installfest.)
In short, we cannot build event planning software for AZOTO/PLUG needs because
AZOTO/PLUG have little need for event planning software and even less
relevant domain expertise.
We pretty much NEED to find alternative un-customers who actually plan events
and try to produce software that they like. Then AZOTO/PLUG can try using
the same software when materializing their vaporous event productions. After
they have experience with planning an event and the blandly named Event
Planner Project then AZOTO/PLUG can provide useful input for EPP.</pre>
</blockquote>
AZOTO expresses them as needs, I have no intention of questioning their
assessment in this regard.<br>
<br>
If you, or anyone else, wishes to bring in additional domain experts to
assist in developing and prioritizing user stories, I'm happy to have
the volunteers. This is a VOLUNTEER project, if someone wants to do
something that will help the project, then post on the list what you
want to do, and, unless someone brings up a cogent objection, go ahead
and do it.<br>
<br>
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</html>
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