Sam,
While I appreciate your "never be complicit" feelings... Its not being locked up you have to be worried about. Look at what they are doing to Bradley Manning to see what they do to "terrorists". Look at what these "leaders" are saying to do to Edward Snowden. He did as you say you would do. He stood up for obvious illegal actions of our own government. Once they label someone a terrorist, it opens up many doors that allow individuals to rationalize their behaviors. Then allow them to step away another degree by the use of drones, and suddenly the ability to "terminate" a terrorist via a joystick becomes rather feasible. And while you may not be willing to do so, others will. Are you willing to stop it? Would you risk jail? Death? How do your spouse/kids feel about that?

You already demonstrate your ability to rationalize the murder of someone who has done nothing to you, or for that matter your country... Label them a Muslim and suddenly violence is acceptable?

Then you say convincing soldiers to turn their guns internally? We already have examples of the state expressing that force.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/05/27/man-dies-after-police-tase-him-family-puzzled/
http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/05/28/4888210/officer-involved-in-shooting-at.html
http://www.suntimes.com/opinions/20084502-474/editorial-check-out-all-abuse-claims-against-one-cop.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/17/raid-of-the-day-doy-vande_n_3294507.html?utm_hp_ref=the-agitator

Just label them a drug user, and BAM! Murder, jail, "You Raise 'em, We Cage 'em". An actual Police Union T-Shirt.
http://i.huffpost.com/gen/1204993/original.jpg - http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/01/school-police-union-u-raise-em-cage-em-t-shirts-anger-town/?test=latestnews

Heck, they don't even have to do that to you anymore. With the average American committing 3 felonies a day, they only need to literally follow you until you break some arbitrary law, then you are arrested, and into the system.

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229
http://reason.com/blog/2013/05/13/the-most-radical-thing-i-do-is-read-phot

There is no need to make some grandiose conspiracy theory about guillotines or ammo hording. Just read the news about our our militarized police state (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1610392116).

One final note. I find it quite telling that our veterans are now committing suicide at a rate of 22 per day! "There were 349 suicides among active duty personnel – almost one a day. That means there are now more suicides among active duty soldiers than there are combat deaths." While its speculation on my part, I find it hard to believe our military is conducting itself in a righteous way when the number of active duty soldiers committing suicide has reached an all time high. If our military actions are causing such drastic reactions, how is it such a stretch to attack "terrorists" at home?

Regards,
Eric

P.S. That was a long-winded OT post... and I apologize to the list! And for top posting too!




On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Sam Kreimeyer <skreimey@gmail.com> wrote:
Eric, I'm in the Army, so, in part, I represent that force. I would never be complicit in any operation against US citizens. I would take my chances being locked up in Ft. Leavenworth if it came down to it. Force is definitely real, but the authority to use it exists only in our minds. If nobody is willing to pull the trigger in the hypothetical scenario you posited, and I know that I am far from the only one whom would refuse such orders, then there is no threat. If we raise children that believe in reason over superstition and trust in ethics over authority (and live that way ourselves when we can), eventually there will be no thugs left. While it isn't fast or glamorous change, it is something we can work towards that makes a positive difference.

Most of the killing, waterboarding, etc. are only possible because Muslims have been so dehumanized in military culture (and in US culture at large). All Muslims are Hajj, and Hajj is a cowardly, murdering pedophile (sometimes true, but most just want us to leave them alone), so any violence toward them is deserved. Convincing soldiers to to see their family, neighbors and countrymen that way is much more difficult.


On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 10:42 PM, Eric Cope <eric.cope@gmail.com> wrote:
Don't forget they have more and bigger guns than you. Force is real. Threat of force is real. Don't believe me? Let's waterboard you until you agree. 



On Jul 2, 2013, at 7:13 PM, Sam il Kreimeyer <skreimey@gmail.com> wrote:

Lisa, I've been trying to make that point for a long time. Power is ultimately only what you believe it is. The NSA (a fictional abstraction of self-responsible individuals), is only as powerful as people's belief in its authority and willingness to act on those beliefs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6b70TUbdfs
This video provides a nice graphical representation of the reality of the situation.


On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Eric Cope <eric.cope@gmail.com> wrote:


On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 4:01 PM, keith smith <klsmith2020@yahoo.com> wrote:

Just say no to FEEMA!  If you say no to ObamaCare it will cost you some tax dollars (fine).  If you say no to gun control you might go to jail. 

------------------------
Keith Smith

--- On Tue, 7/2/13, skreimey@gmail.com <skreimey@gmail.com> wrote:

From: skreimey@gmail.com <skreimey@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Secret spying on your Internet activity?
To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
Date: Tuesday, July 2, 2013, 8:55 AM

Writing my reps didn't accomplish much during TARP. Finding ways to not participate in or support policies you oppose in your daily life is probably the most effective form of activism.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Smartphone


----- Reply message -----
From: "keith smith" <klsmith2020@yahoo.com>
To: "Ken" <parabellum7@yahoo.com>, "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
Subject: OT: Secret spying on your Internet activity?
Date: Mon, Jul 1, 2013 5:01 PM




I would vet them first.  You can always call, email, or fax your us rep and us senators.

This looks like a Gov site.  If it is I'd stay away. 

------------------------
Keith Smith

--- On Mon, 7/1/13, Ken <parabellum7@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Ken <parabellum7@yahoo.com>
Subject: OT: Secret spying on your Internet activity?
To: "plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org" <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org>
Date: Monday, July 1, 2013, 1:17 PM

Are these online petitions worth signing? Or is it just a way to get your email addy on more spam lists?


-K



----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Change.org <mail@change.org>
To: parabellum7@yahoo.com
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 9:39 AM
Subject: Secret spying on your Internet activity?

Change.org

Ken - There's a new petition taking off on Change.org, and we think you might be interested in signing it:

Eric Holder: Allow tech companies to publish NSA PRISM data

By Alec F.
Alameda, California
After a leak of documents from the National Security Agency showed that a secret program called PRISM allows widespread surveillance of U.S. citizens' phone and internet activities with some of the world's biggest tech corporations, the nation is concerned and confused about our privacy rights. 
President Obama and the NSA have stated that widespread spying of Americans is not taking place and that the government is only requesting certain data from these companies. There is an easy way to show if this is true and that companies like Google, Facebook, Microsoft, and Twitter have taken the commendable step of requesting that the NSA allow them to publish the records of government data requests in their company transparency reports. 
In part, Google's letter states:
Assertions in the press that our compliance with these requests gives the U.S. government unfettered access to our users’ data are simply untrue. However, government nondisclosure obligations regarding the number of FISA national security requests that Google receives, as well as the number of accounts covered by those requests, fuel that speculation.

We therefore ask you to help make it possible for Google to publish in our Transparency Report aggregate numbers of national security requests, including FISA disclosures—in terms of both the number we receive and their scope. Google’s numbers would clearly show that our compliance with these requests falls far short of the claims being made. Google has nothing to hide. 
The government allowed Google to start reporting the number of national security letters they received requesting data earlier this year, but they are still barred from releasing information about Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) orders. The requests for this data often comes in the form of secret court orders that not only force these companies to give data but also make it impossible for them to discuss even the basic details. That should change.
By allowing these companies to include this information in their transparency reports, the government will be giving American citizens at least some of the insight we deserve about how our daily activities like emails and Google searches are being tracked by the government. 
The person (or organization) who started this petition is not affiliated with Change.org. Change.org did not create this petition and is not responsible for the petition content.
This email was sent by Change.org to parabellum7@yahoo.com. You can edit your email preferences or unsubscribe from Change.org emails.
Mailing Address: Change.org · 216 W 104th St., #130 · New York, NY 10025



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