On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Lisa Kachold <lisakachold@obnosis.com> wrote:
> I don't hire people on the basis of either certification or education
> and neither did a great number of the original ISP's or development
> firms.
>
> I have a few certs (have gotten various certs through the years) but I
> don't believe they show anything other than I can certify.
>
> And I have hired people who had Masters in CS, all manner of Certs,
> who would NOT work, taking responsibility for nothing or who were
> essentially, "academics" rather than engineers or administrators, and
> could not perform if/then/therefore logical troubleshooting or real
> time emergency "obnosis" on the front lines during regular production
> linux work.
>
> If you want education, right now is the perfect time to get a degree,

 I beg to differ... education is unbelievably overpriced.  If you do
not qualify for grants, ie. youre a white male, the return on
education investment right now is very very poor.  People often forget
that the boomer generation often went to university without accruing
any debt whatsoever (that is if they had the drive to do it).  Today,
going to college often means LIFETIME debt.

 As for your comments on hiring process, I knew someone who used to
say exactly the same thing.  He had no degree and had reached the
ceiling of what a non-degreed person could achieve in the corporate
world.  He claimed that his discrimination process was much more
effective than any university.  What he was really doing was
surrounding himself with sycophants who knew how he liked his ego
stroked (= "smart people" in his language).  Needless to say, the
proof is in the pudding... the customer is interested in what you can
accomplish.  His department was constantly hanging by a thread and
everyone worked 80+ hours a week.  The good people dropped out
quickly, and the undesirables were left ( whom he liked to think as
having "true grit").

 Colleges formalize and accreditize knowledge, and that isn't
worthless.  Its not worth anywhere near what you pay for it, however.

 -jmz

> while the world changes around (did you see Dark City?)....get grants
> and loans and go get a 4 year in 3 or something like UAT or Devry
> offers.
>
> WE LIVE IN AN EDUCATIONAL CASTE SYSTEM!  You will be paid on the basis
> of your education and in corporate America, your lack of an education
> (without 25 years of experience) will get you a only a nice contract
> job or a technical support job....
>
> No amount of certifications will change that!
>
>
> On 11/1/09, Jason Spatafore <jason_online@spatafore.net> wrote:
>> Linux+ objectives are changing this year, so I don't think you could
>> "cram" for the exam quite yet since the newer books will probably be
>> heading out to the shelves soon. However, I always place stock in the
>> exam cram and exam prep books as those seem to help tremendously. (I
>> used exam cram + exam prep for my exam back in 2003.)
>>
>> Other good books that are not exam related would be anything from
>> O'reilly.
>>
>> For the "ask and answer" part...I would suggest online communities and
>> this discussion list. Go to a few install fests. Talk with the
>> people...most importantly, don't be afraid to sound "stupid"...we all
>> went through the "Oh crap, I forgot everything is a file" thought. :)
>>
>> If you feel really ambitious...pick up a book about C programming. Not C
>> ++...C programming. The Linux kernel, and many of the other commands are
>> programmed in C. This gives you an understanding of the Syntax. Then
>> there is some knowledge of Perl, Python, etc. You don't need the
>> advanced knowledge of a programmer, but you do need to get a good hold
>> on the syntatical differences. This can all be done online for free if
>> you find the penny pile starting to get a little reduced.
>>
>> The beauty of Linux...is that experience and community overrules
>> certification and profit.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 14:08 -0700, Sean Parsons wrote:
>>> Jason - Thank you for your response.
>>>
>>>      I have spent the last 4-5 months doing the self paced learning, checking
>>> out every book I can get but it still falls short of complete as it's one
>>> way learning and I can learn faster 2-way, asking questions-getting
>>> answers. I have the LPI books on library loan to see if I could pass the
>>> test, but seriously I know enough to break a server/workstation better
>>> than a newbie.. :)
>>>
>>>      I want to learn more and need to find a place to get that 2-way
>>> communication so I can get passed this learning curve. I want to replace
>>> 75% of my windows servers in the next 12 months, but want to be more
>>> confident in my abilities first.
>>>
>>>      Can you recommend a source for linux+, I have centered on Ubuntu for now
>>> as Mandriva and Debian offered me too many challenges, but may be fine
>>> after I get up to speed better. So I don't think the distro is a
>>> factor.... yet.
>>>
>>>      I would love to be the guy to figure out how to play my MS games in
>>> Linux, as it is now my only reason to keep Windows around in a virtual
>>> desktop..... Eventually I'd like to use the disks for target practice.. :}
>>>
>>>      Thanks again for your time.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sean Parsons
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: plug-discuss-bounces@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
>>> [mailto:plug-discuss-bounces@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of Jason
>>> Spatafore
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:59 PM
>>> To: Main PLUG discussion list
>>> Subject: Re: Linux certification
>>>
>>> Honestly, get Linux+ and play with Linux day in and day out. If you can
>>> learn one command, and 3 of that command's most useful options, every
>>> week, you will start to move forward fast. It's kind of like collecting
>>> weapons in a video game...the more you have, the more versatile you can
>>> be. (After 3 years, you'll know 150+ commands...and those 150 commands
>>> is a HUGE arsenal of weaponry that can make you extremely versatile.)
>>>
>>> Do not think you can "certify yourself into the industry". Linux is
>>> beyond an organized structure of system administration....it's a thought
>>> process. You approach the problem with "what do I need to do?" then "is
>>> there a command that already does it?"
>>>
>>> Linux has a community that creates, explores, challenges, and expands.
>>> If you are going to be a part in that community, you must definitely
>>> explore...a LOT.
>>>
>>> That's my advice to anybody who may want to get into Linux. Understand
>>> that gaming will be your largest challenge...but you could become one of
>>> the people who will change that drawback.
>>>
>>> All I have is Linux+...there's also LPI. I, myself, refuse to get a
>>> distribution specific certification. I want to learn Linux...not one
>>> company's translation on how it should be. Of course, you could be
>>> different. If so, Red Hat and Novell (SuSE) have certification tracks as
>>> well, and they're not for the lighthearted. They're pretty tough, but
>>> very focused on *their* distributions.
>>>
>>> Remember, a Linux technician is beyond a guy who replaces a piece of
>>> hardware or a system administrator who manages systems. A person who is
>>> known in the Linux community is a combination of hardware technician,
>>> programmer, and engineer...with a very good understanding of how all the
>>> pieces mix and match.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 08:55 -0700, Sean Parsons wrote:
>>> > Hello all –
>>> >
>>> > I’m new to the group, but have been working in IT fields for longer
>>> > than I want to admit, but I see the error of my ways and I want to
>>> > repent and be saved….. I’m considering getting Linux certification.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I am interested in speaking with anyone who has gotten certified, or
>>> > can give me any details about local cert classes or testing.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Thanks
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Doorman352
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
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