Only problem is you have government in business.

------------------------
Keith Smith


--- On Sat, 8/1/09, Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle@cox.net> wrote:

> From: Lyle Tuttle <L.tuttle@cox.net>
> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX
> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 7:58 PM
>
> 
> The city of Surprise has moved into a new
> city hall complex,
> and are turning the old offices / building into a
> "start-up" or
> incubator for new or emerging businesses.
>
>
> lyle tuttle
>
>
> At 07:50 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote:
>
> On Sat, Aug 1,
> 2009 at 6:50 PM,
> keith smith<klsmith2020@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I think what is really missing from this equation is
> mentoring and
> training.
>
>
>   what I would like to see is some real support from
> AZ government
> to
>
> help make tech companies feel welcome here.  This
> means:
>
>
>   1) making the valley a good place not only to build
> a company but
> to
>
> build a *career*.  this means buy in from both sides
> of the
> equation.
>
> I would like to see a bit more address at lower capital
> levels, but
>
> that may prove to be difficult.  It seems that most
> existing
> concepts
>
> are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you build
> a factory
>
> in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers, but
> technology
>
> requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving job
> market.
> The
>
> needs are quite different.  The biggest issue with
> starting a
> company
>
> out here is finding people.  Where are all the
> people?  in
> CA.
>
> because it has a good job market.  If we can outsource
> to India,
> we
>
> sure as hell can outsource to Arizona.
>
>
>   2) setting up low cost legal structure and as you
> say mentoring
> to
>
> really help stimulate technology development.
> We've seen (at
> least
>
> nominal) efforts in the past.  Why did they
> fail?  This means
> real and
>
> adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production and
> market.
> A
>
> small investment in this area will yield returns in tax
> base and
>
> property value by a factor of hundreds.  Arizona has
> the potential
> to
>
> pick up a lot of this commercial activity because
> California is
>
> currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state to
> build your
>
> business.  If AZ fails to see the opportunity here, we
> will lose
> out
>
> big time.  Currently the budget proceedings are still
> in
> gridlock.
>
>
>   the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right idea,
> he was
> suggesting
>
> recently a green technology center near Phx center.  I
> think thats
> the
>
> direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz
>
>
> >
>
> > I like the idea that folks are getting together to
> network.
> This is a really cool idea.  Even for non-technical
> stuff like
> finding out how people deal with customers, contracting,
> book-keeping,
> ETC.
>
> >
>
> > ------------------------
>
> > Keith Smith
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner
> <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> From: Joshua Zeidner <jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>
> >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in
> PHX
>
> >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list"
> <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>
> >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM
>
> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM,
>
> >> Alan Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> > Joshua,
>
> >> >
>
> >> > I put all your replies together in one long
> document
>
> >> and reread them.
>
> >> > I am still confused a bit.
> Enlightenment via
> email
>
> >> rarely occurs.
>
> >> > However, I really want to understand your
> position in
>
> >> this discussion.
>
> >> >  Let me summarize what I understand from
> your
>
> >> replies.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your
> comments]---
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - There is a small group or groups of people
> who keep
>
> >> spinning off
>
> >> > communities using tired marketing
> techniques.
> This
>
> >> results in blogs
>
> >> > but not true communities.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - Some of these people cannot deal with
> existing
>
> >> structure and the
>
> >> > efforts of the past.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - These weak attempts do not articulate goals
> or
>
> >> purpose well, if at all.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - We must honestly look at criticism to learn
> and
>
> >> improve.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - These weak people need to address the
> efforts of the
>
> >> past and
>
> >> > provide suggestions on how they can be
> improved upon.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - Getting political support will provide
> legitimacy to
>
> >> their efforts.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - Phoenix will attract technology businesses
> because
>
> >> of the relative
>
> >> > low cost and this will help improve things.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - You have first hand experiences of weak,
> marketing
>
> >> fronted,
>
> >> > community building efforts.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand
> ideas but get
>
> >> nowhere with them
>
> >> > because they are not real businesses.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - People at a co-working location or coffee
> shop will
>
> >> not help you
>
> >> > with your business unless you pay them.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - Most people at co-working started their one
> person
>
> >> business after
>
> >> > being laid-off and are not serious about
> it.
> They
>
> >> are really just
>
> >> > looking for the next full time gig.
> This will get
> in
>
> >> your way if you
>
> >> > have real business work to do.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - We must look truthfully at this issue if we
> are to
>
> >> make progress.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > - There are no serious incubators and
> entrepreneurial
>
> >> meetups in
>
> >> > Phoenix.  No announcements on VC funding
> of
> companies
>
> >> so it's not
>
> >> > really entrepreneurial growth.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your comments]---
>
> >> >
>
> >> > I see validity in every one of these
> comments.  I
>
> >> also think many of
>
> >> > them can be balanced by the other point of
> view.
> I
>
> >> still have
>
> >> > questions, if I may ask, before I state too
> much of my
>
> >> own thinking.
>
> >> > I want to learn more about your thinking.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > 1. What does "deal with existing
> structure"
> mean?
>
> >>  This confuses me,
>
> >> > not know what structure you are talking
> about.
>
> >>
>
> >>   Many user groups have been formed and
> continue
> to
>
> >> exist... how is
>
> >> <groupX> different?  other than its led
> by
>
> >> person Y?  I mean dealing
>
> >> with some of these groups I feel like Im back to
> age 8
>
> >> trying to gain
>
> >> admittance into the neighborhood treehouse.
> Perhaps I
>
> >> should spend
>
> >> more time drinking beer with these people?
> Seeing the
>
> >> same small
>
> >> group churning out 'communities' is at
> first funny, then
>
> >> annoying.  I
>
> >> just see a real lack of serious intent, and unless
> that is
>
> >> noted
>
> >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad.  I
> really dont
>
> >> think Im being
>
> >> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out
> some valid
>
> >> observations.
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you
> referring?
> I
>
> >> want to
>
> >> > understand the size and nature of efforts to
> creating
>
> >> a community that
>
> >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did not
> work as
>
> >> planned.
>
> >>
>
> >>   I remember when I first came to AZ
> that there was
> an
>
> >> tech
>
> >> incubator...  what happened to it?
> Which
>
> >> political agents currently
>
> >> support technology development in the
> valley?  what do
>
> >> they think
>
> >> about your org?  these things are pretty
> basic...
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >> > 3. What political support is needed?
> You mean
>
> >> government funding of
>
> >> > events or startups or just verbal support or
> what?
>
> >>
>
> >>   I wouldn't expect funding, but it
> would be good
> to
>
> >> see some
>
> >> political buy in.  Lack of just supports my
> opinions,
>
> >> that its really
>
> >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor organization.
>
> >> Without any good
>
> >> signposts, all this will produce are people who
> get jaded
>
> >> and
>
> >> disaffected with regards to this location.
> If you had
>
> >> something
>
> >> together I doubt that a good politician would turn
> you
>
> >> down.
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for someone
> who is
>
> >> laid-off to have
>
> >> > grand ideas, talk about them and they never
> come to
>
> >> be?
>
> >>
>
> >>   Its not.  As I said, I don't
> find any of
> these
>
> >> things highly
>
> >> offensive- but like you I am free to express
> myself.
>
> >> Sorry if its not
>
> >> filled with abundant exaltations.
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people might
> help each
>
> >> other in business
>
> >> > efforts?  Isn't strengthening and
> creating such a
>
> >> culture a good idea
>
> >> > or should such a goal not be pursued because
> it is not
>
> >> practically
>
> >> > possible?
>
> >>
>
> >>   sure.  good thread btw.
> -jmz
>
> >>
>
> >> >
>
> >> > Alan
>
> >> >
>
> >> >
>
> >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua
> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> another great one:
>
> >> >>
>
> >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are
> the
> incubators,
>
> >> the "bootstrap"
>
> >> >> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial
> meetups in
>
> >> Phoenix??? (crickets
>
> >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't
> happening as a
>
> >> serious place where
>
> >> >> serious people are doing serious things.
> No one
>
> >> wants it badly enough
>
> >> >> here. This paper should be having at
> least one
>
> >> article a week on a new
>
> >> >> startup and the VC firm who funded it.
>
> >> Helloooo????? is anybody out
>
> >> >> there...."
>
> >> >>
>
> >> >> a better way to phrase this: we need to
> stop
>
> >> pretending these
>
> >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by local
>
> >> self-employed marketing experts
>
> >> >> are sufficient.  They are not.
> We should
> be
>
> >> asking the hard
>
> >> >> questions, not playing games.
>
> >> >>
>
> >> >> -jmz
>
> >> >>
>
> >> >>
>
> >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Joshua
>
> >> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >>>  another point, honestly reading
> through
> some
>
> >> of the criticisms on
>
> >> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe
> dwelling creed
>
> >> myself, I'd have to say
>
> >> >>> that many of those points are
> accurate.
> I've
>
> >> heard lots of
>
> >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big
> ideas around here who
>
> >> never get anywhere with
>
> >> >>> them.  Sorry, but a word press
> template
>
> >> doesn't make you an
>
> >> >>> entrepreneur.
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>>  "These are the same people
> you see
> at
>
> >> Starbucks, Boarders or any
>
> >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are not
>
> >> entrepreneurs they are attention
>
> >> >>> (inappropriate term)."
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>>  "Many of the Co-Worker
> location
> founders
>
> >> tout other people to
>
> >> >>> collaborate with and who can
> "compensate
> for
>
> >> your deficiencies". Do
>
> >> >>> you really believe someone that you
> are not
>
> >> paying as an employee is
>
> >> >>> going to somehow compensate for your
>
> >> deficiencies and make your
>
> >> >>> business better? That kind of help
> doesn't
>
> >> come without a price."
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>>  oh so true...
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>>  "You are more likely to
> get a bunch
> of
>
> >> people chatting to you over
>
> >> >>> your "work" so you wont be
> concentrating
> as
>
> >> you should to focus on
>
> >> >>> your business. Most of these people
> started
>
> >> businesses after being
>
> >> >>> laid off. They are searching for a
> new job and
>
> >> they aren't really
>
> >> >>> serious about their
> "businesses" so how
> do you
>
> >> expect them to give you
>
> >> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are these
> the kind
>
> >> of people you need to
>
> >> >>> compensate for your deficiencies? A
> bunch of
>
> >> people half-as running
>
> >> >>> their "business" while
> searching for a
> real
>
> >> job and bothering you with
>
> >> >>> their expertise that got them laid
> off in the
>
> >> first place."
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>>  oh so so true...
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>>  I would be willing to bet the
> commenter
>
> >> above is an tried and true
>
> >> >>> successful entrepreneur.
> Perhaps the
> reason
>
> >> I am so skeptical is
>
> >> >>> because I know these kind of people
> so well.
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>>  sorry I really wish I could be
> more
>
> >> supportive... but :  truth is
>
> >> >>> the foundation of progress.
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>>  -jmz
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM,
> Joshua
>
> >> Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >>>>  Alan,
>
> >> >>>>
>
> >> >>>>    Wish I had time
> to respond to
> all
>
> >> these points right now, not sure
>
> >> >>>> you read me the way I would
> prefer
>
> >> however.  Its not so grave a
>
> >> >>>> warning, just getting the word
> out on my
>
> >> first hand experiences.  Im
>
> >> >>>> just one of many- but hopefully
> an
>
> >> impartial observer and someone
>
> >> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ.
>
> >> >>>>
>
> >> >>>>  all the best, jmz
>
> >> >>>>
>
> >> >>>>
>
> >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM,
> Alan
>
> >> Dayley<alandd@consultpros.com>
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >>>>> Josh,
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> I feel warned.  And I
> don't
>
> >> understand the reason for such a strong warning.
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> There are people in every
> industry,
>
> >> government or community who wish
>
> >> >>>>> to fleece their
> "community" for
> their
>
> >> own profit instead of mutual
>
> >> >>>>> benefit.  The trick is
> to find
> the
>
> >> positive people and ignore the
>
> >> >>>>> rest.  Apply the same
> filter with
>
> >> every event, group or blogger in the
>
> >> >>>>> lists and links I
> provided.  I
> don't
>
> >> expect bloggers or techies to be
>
> >> >>>>> any different, as if being
> techie
>
> >> makes one a saint.
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> Some of those bloggers are
> purely
>
> >> commercial or completely neglected,
>
> >> >>>>> I'm sure.  Some of
> the groups or
>
> >> events or sites listed are lousy,
>
> >> >>>>> boring or poor marketing
> excuses to
>
> >> sell something.  Some are not out
>
> >> >>>>> to create community but to
> build a
>
> >> "kingdom" for their own benefit.
>
> >> >>>>> They are the duds.
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> Let's look at a few
> positives:
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank
> Manifesto on
>
> >> their home page at
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> http://gangplankhq.com. That looks like
>
> >> a great articulation of their
>
> >> >>>>> goals and purpose.  Ones
> I
> strongly
>
> >> support!
>
> >> >>>>> -- Read how the manifesto
> came to be
>
> >> on Derek's blog at
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/
>
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or is
> hosting:
>
> >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long
> conference on
>
> >> developing for phones like
>
> >> >>>>> iPhone or Android
>
> >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 hour
> Saturday
>
> >> event for kids 5-15 to learn
>
> >> >>>>> programming concepts
>
> >> >>>>> -- Wordpress training classes
> for
>
> >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs
>
> >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day
> long
>
> >> conference on job searching and entreprenuership
>
> >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a day
> long
>
> >> conference on software development
>
> >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch ted.com
> videos
>
> >> and discuss them
>
> >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night of
> open mic
>
> >> music and entertainment
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> - The last
>
> http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and
>
> >> nearly
>
> >> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix
> campus with
>
> >> developers talking about code or
>
> >> >>>>> making code.  Free lunch
> of pizza
> and
>
> >> sub sandwiches was provided too.
>
> >> >>>>>  Put together by
> volunteers.
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> - If you're into
> Microsoft based
>
> >> development tech, the people who
>
> >> >>>>> maintain the
> http://azgroups.com
> site do an annual all-day event at
>
> >> >>>>> venues like the Orphium
> Theater and at
>
> >> no cost to attendees.  Fine,
>
> >> >>>>> it's marketing for MS but
> it's put on
>
> >> by volunteers here in the valley
>
> >> >>>>> and a great way for people to
> learn
>
> >> about things that improve their
>
> >> >>>>> career skills.
>
> >> >>>>>
> (
> http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx
> )
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails
> group has
>
> >> monthly meetings with around 30
>
> >> >>>>> regularly in attendance.
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> - The Java group is also well
> attended
>
> >> every month.
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> - The third
> http://podcampaz.com/
>  is coming up in November, put on
>
> >> by
>
> >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost
> (donation
>
> >> requested) to attendees.  Had about 350
>
> >> >>>>> people attend last year (if I
> recall)
>
> >> for two days of conference.
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> - The
>
> http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in
>
> >> November
>
> >> >>>>> for the forth year.
> This one
> costs
>
> >> $100+ but should be as well
>
> >> >>>>> attended as last year with
> 200+
>
> >> people.  Funded and organized in part
>
> >> >>>>> by a local venture capital
> group.
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> - The first
>
> http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago
> with
>
> >> a
>
> >> >>>>> little over 100 in attendance
> and has
>
> >> grown to fill the 600 seat
>
> >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center for
> the Arts
>
> >> back in June.  The connections
>
> >> >>>>> made there live well past the
> event.
>
> >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council member
> and the
>
> >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last
>
> >> >>>>> time, though he was a bit
> silly trying
>
> >> to be Tempe exclusive.  That
>
> >> >>>>> seems to be at least verbal
> political
>
> >> support.
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on
> FS/OSS is
>
> >> being planned for October and
>
> >> >>>>> should be better than last
> year. (Go
>
> >> Hans and team!)
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> I'm not going to go on,
> though I could
>
> >> point out several purely social
>
> >> >>>>> events like
>
> http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and
> west
>
> >> valley
>
> >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley Thursday
> Morning
>
> >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch,
>
> >> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet and
> Eat and
>
> >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch
>
> >> >>>>> presentations every
> Wednesday.
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> Now, having said all of that
> "giddy
>
> >> blind optimism," I'd like to
>
> >> >>>>> understand how the above does
> not
>
> >> address the efforts of the past or
>
> >> >>>>> provide improvement over past
> efforts.
>
> >>  What are the real needs of the
>
> >> >>>>> community, if not some of the
> above?
>
> >>  What would you suggest?  How can
>
> >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it?
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> Alan
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:34
> PM,
>
> >> Joshua Zeidner<jjzeidner@gmail.com>
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >>>>>>  Alan,
>
> >> >>>>>>
>
> >> >>>>>>    while I
> appreciate
> your post,
>
> >> and anyone who is making a sincere
>
> >> >>>>>> effort to build community
> in
>
> >> Phoenix... be warned.  There are some
>
> >> >>>>>> small groups who
> periodically
>
> >> spawn off new 'communities' every month
>
> >> >>>>>> or so.  Look closely
> and you
> see
>
> >> the same few people with reused
>
> >> >>>>>> marketing recipes.
> Lots of
> blog
>
> >> and not too much community I'm
>
> >> >>>>>> afraid.  Their
> efforts amount
> to
>
> >> some simple branding and putting up a
>
> >> >>>>>> blog.  While these
> things are
> not
>
> >> really particularily offensive to
>
> >> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat
> detract from
>
> >> interest in the real needs of the
>
> >> >>>>>> community here.
> Some of
> these
>
> >> people are just outright idiotic and
>
> >> >>>>>> cannot deal with
> existing
>
> >> structure and refuse to accept the history
>
> >> >>>>>> of efforts in the
> past.  They
>
> >> lack any articulation of their goals and
>
> >> >>>>>> purpose.  Often
> times they
> have
>
> >> trouble organizing even small groups
>
> >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3.  Dont
> forget we've
> had
>
> >> a tech incubator here.  Lets not
>
> >> >>>>>> smack down sincere
> criticism in
>
> >> favor of giddy blind optimism,
>
> >> >>>>>> remember you can't
> improve without
>
> >> criticism.  I would take these
>
> >> >>>>>> people much more
> seriously if they
>
> >> addressed the efforts of the past
>
> >> >>>>>> and perhaps suggested how
> they are
>
> >> going to improve on them, or
>
> >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate what has
> changed
>
> >> that will make them a success.
>
> >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real
> political
>
> >> support would gain some legitimacy.
>
> >> >>>>>>
>
> >> >>>>>>    on the
> positive side,
> I think
>
> >> Phoenix will attract a lot of
>
> >> >>>>>> technology business due
> to its
>
> >> relative low cost and no doubt you will
>
> >> >>>>>> start to see community
>
> >> infrastructure grow.  We are seeing some
> real
>
> >> >>>>>> urban development
> happening in Phx
>
> >> metro which has me very excited.  I
>
> >> >>>>>> think when the
> macroeconomic
>
> >> problems are sorted out we will see
>
> >> >>>>>> downtown Phx bloom.
> Im
> hoping
>
> >> that the average Arizonan gets involved
>
> >> >>>>>> in the political process
> and make
>
> >> sure that the corruption stays out
>
> >> >>>>>> of city and state
> politics.
>
> >>  Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of
>
> >> >>>>>> positive development
> trends in Phx
>
> >> metro.
>
> >> >>>>>>
>
> >> >>>>>>  -jmz
>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >>
> ---------------------------------------------------
>
> >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -
> PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us
>
> >> >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or
> to
>
> >> change your mail settings:
>
> >> >>>>>
>
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>
> >> >>>>>
>
> >> >>>>
>
> >> >>>
>
> >> >>
>
> >>
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