There was no judgement in my statements - just observations and arithmetic.  Nor am I making any assertion about value - indeed, for my current role, my value is only determined by the lack of Eric Snowden type of security breaches. If you want to hear judgements, I can digress on how government-backed, guaranteed, student loans inflated the price of education, and how the government should have never gotten involved with it and they shouldn't have nationalized it,  but I won't :) Funny you should mention the competition.  I had a friend from Singapore who had to go to England for her Undergraduate degree and then to the US for her Graduate because she couldn't get into college in Singapore. I have been a staunch supporter of the college system in this country, but I work with people who have no college, and some of us have Graduate degrees.  For the field I'm in, one could self-learn and avoid college.  And as I retrain for my next career, I have also returned to college and am becoming very disillusioned.  The curriculum is teaching tool sets rather than concepts, and at this point, I can pick up some vendor training and certifications for free and some 4-day industry workshops for the same price as a 3 semester hour class.  So why should I go to college? Regards, George Toft On 7/7/2023 2:39 PM, trent shipley via PLUG-discuss wrote: > :So you're saying the Indians and Argientinans obviously deserved the > job more than you since they would do the same work for less money?  > Also, why would an American be better at the job than someone from > anywhere else?  Or are you saying you are better than most of your > peers in general, you're part of the 20% of your profession > who generate 80% of the value. I mean the competition to get into a > third-world government university is fierce, especially if it's > ranked.  The selectivity of admission rates match MIT and Stanford, > theoretically Indian and Chinese computer scientists as a population > should outperform their European, and even more their American > competition. > > On Fri, Jul 7, 2023 at 2:29 PM George Toft via PLUG-discuss > wrote: > > The only shortage that exists is technical people with Bachelors > Degrees > willing to work for minimum wage. > > Case in point.  My employer is required to post HR crap in the public > spaces (break rooms).  One of the posts showed Tata Consultancy was > providing a DBA for $66K/year.  Tata takes 1/3 (typical), so the > resource is getting $44K/year ($22/hr).  My kids make more than that > with a High School education.  This is what the young people are > competing against, so why go into this field? > > Another case in point.  My job got outsourced to Argentina and the > resources were getting $6/hr.  I later heard it got raised to $10/hr. > That was still 1/4 of what I was making.  Even if the Argentinians > screwed up and had to rework a task, the company still saved 50% over > hiring an American on that task, and they are elated at the cost > savings. > > Regards, > > George Toft > > On 6/7/2023 3:29 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote: > > On 2023-06-07 13:59, James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss wrote: > >> Generally, if I hear it from cable news, there's a good chance it's > >> just someone drumming up support for something.  In this case, > we'll > >> probably hear about some kind of H1B system to make sure the > new fabs > >> get all the people they need, etc.  Same deal as when I was > working at > >> a company that got bought by Dell, and they failed to retain > most of > >> the new employees because they didn't have a structure that worked > >> with professionals.  Suddenly you saw Michael Dell doing an > interview > >> on CNBC about the need to extend H1B 'cause they aren't getting > enough > >> workers.  At the very least, there's plenty of incentive to > drive down > >> labor costs.  And with the halts for new housing going out, > there is a > >> LOT of incentive to manipulate the market. > >> > >> Am I being paranoid?  I probably need to touch more grass. > > > > Are you getting too paranoid?  Maybe not.  I quit following the > news > > because I think most are fearmongering and not talking and > working on > > the real problems. > > > > I personally do not like the H1B visas because I do not think > they are > > necessary. If there is really a shortage of tech workers then > why is > > there not a few major tech universities?  Why does Gates exploit > the > > H1B and not create a really great tech university? And why do the > > politicians allow all of this? > > > > We have all we need right here in our 50 states, so why do we > not do > > things that benefit ourselves and possibly others? > > > > These people like Michael Dell, Bill Gates, etc have forgotten > where > > they came from. > > > > QUESTION? > > > > I understand TSMC produces the most chips in the world, and is > located > > in Taiwan .  Where did they get that technology and who paid for > that > > technology? > > > > > > > >> > >> On Wed, Jun 7, 2023 at 1:15 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Don't believe everything you read on the internet.  I've read that > >>> Abraham Lincoln blames Donald Trump for giving the gun to John > >>> Wilkes Booth. > >>> > >>> On 6/6/23 17:45, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote: > >>>> Chip maker TSMC is moving to chandler and I have read they are a > >>>> sweatshop.... > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------- > >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >>> --------------------------------------------------- > >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > >> -- > >> James McPhee > >> jmcphe@gmail.com > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --------------------------------------------------- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss