I don't really have the time to reply to all of this, but I did want to reply to a couple of things.

> Let them go back to windows. Not everybody belongs in the Linux world.

This. This right here is why you shouldn't be giving advice to newbies. This is the wrong attitude to have if you want to new people involved with Linux. New people are a good thing, they have new ideas and new directions that they want to go, and will take things to places never thought before. To push them out will create a dying community.

Just take a look at Amateur Radio if you want an example of what this creates. It's hard to get young people interested because of the stigma of it being a hobby of old grumpy men that don't want to do anything but get signal reports on their SSB HF radios, using the same tech that existed 100 years ago.

For new people, easier is better, hence GNOME or KDE being a good recommendation. Once they get their footing then they can go and try more esoteric things as they get comfortable. Having them try to use straight openbox with a custom configuration is NOT the right advice for a new person.

Lastly, yes I did mean "integrated" and not "dependent" or "entangled". GNOME 3/4 in no way, shape, or form, REQUIRES systemd. You don't have to look far to prove this as it runs on FreeBSD, which is systemd-free. And no you don't have to jump through hoops to get it working, you install it and enable a couple services and poof it works just as well as on any other Linux system. GNOME also a first-class desktop environment on Void.

On Mon, Oct 24, 2022, at 11:25 PM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote:
> Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 24 Oct 2022 08:58:12 -0700
> 
> >Choice of desktop environments is always going to be subjective... for
> >instance I think that people that use i3, DWM, and other minimal
> >window managers are masochists; 
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
> 
> > there's just no way I could justify
> >spending the time learning and setting up those desktop environments;
> 
> Why not? Learn them once, adapt them to your exact workflow, and use
> them for years. They change only to make changes almost unanimously
> considered improvements, so your learning time is an investment well
> spent. I've used Openbox for eight years, and spent little time
> learning it after the first month.
> 
> >I just want to use my computer.
> 
> So do we all. Unfortunately, we all have to keep learning, one way or
> another. Just ask users of the abandoned Unity. Or those left behind
> who refused to jump off the cliff when Gnome2 (which I used
> enthusiastically) became the comparatively inscrutable Gnome3. This
> move was so unpopular it spawned the popular MATE Desktop as a Gnome2
> continuation. Just over 10 years ago the forced conversion from Kmail to
> the Nepomuk and Akonadi encumbered Kmail 2 sent users flying to other
> email clients. I hear of hardly anybody using kmail on a regular basis.
> 
> >
> >Telling newbies to avoid GNOME/KDE because they're "slow" and pushing
> >them off into, IMO, inferior desktop environments is just going to
> >make them go back to Windows. 
> 
> Let them go back to windows. Not everybody belongs in the Linux world.
> Far too much of Linux' choice and DIYability has been sacrificed on the
> alter of "Grandma", "the Newbie", and "Windows users". Gnome now
> depends on what init system you use. What could *possibly* go wrong?
> 
> Also, Gnome/KDE being slow is a minor problem. The big problem is that
> they're massively entangled and hostile to anything outside their
> world, and this entanglement produces bugware.
> 
> > GNOME for instance may have been "slow"
> >11 years ago with GNOME 3 was original released, but it's been
> >optimized since and runs fine on even 10 year old hardware.
> 
> As long as you agree to install the massively entangled systemd.
> 
> >
> >It's the same when you tell a newbie to avoid standard distros such as
> >Debian/Ubuntu and instead go to ones like Devuan or Void because they
> >don't use systemd; 
> 
> Name me one newbie disadvantage of Devuan compared to Debian. As far as
> Void, yeah, only the intelligent newbie who wants real control over his
> computer should be advised to go to Void.
> 
> > you're doing a disservice to them and the
> >community. Systemd distros that use KDE and especially GNOME are well
> >integrated and things tend to just work without tweaking.
> 
> s/integrated/entangled
> 
> As far as just working without tweaking, so does Devuan. And I
> think, but am not sure, that when you install Void you pick the CD for
> the source instead of the Internet, you also get a "just works"
> situation. 
> >
> >P.S. When I say "inferior", what I'm really trying to convey is that
> >they're less polished,
> 
> It's a computer, not a 1957 Chevy.
> 
> > less integrated, 
> 
> Less entangled and therefore more modular and easier to modify to suit
> one's needs.
> 
> >have a smaller group of
> >developers, 
> 
> Which is a good thing, because the last decade and a half shows us an
> excess of developers, especially the kind whose salaries are paid by
> the likes of Redhat, lead to first mission creep and then mission kudzu.
> 
> and generally move slower. 
> 
> Which is a good thing. You yourself said you just want to use your
> computer, rather than continuously learning how to deal with its
> changes.
> 
> > You're going to spend more time
> >trying to figure out how to tweak things because the communities are
> >smaller. 
> 
> The preceding is true, but I've found in most cases those communities
> are big enough to help you solve your problems.
> 
> > That and you're going to be relegated to using worse
> >interfaces for things like bluetooth, wifi, and ethernet, because you
> >have to use utilities like wicd or network-manager-applet instead of
> >the wonderful interfaces built into GNOME or KDE.
> 
> I can't speak to the wonderful interfaces of Gnome or KDE, but did you
> know that the Devuan project now has a replacement for wicd and
> network-manager? Developed by DeVuan, not DeBian.
> 
> I'm all for progress, but never at the expense of complexity and
> monolithic entanglement.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt 
> Summer 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
> ---------------------------------------------------
> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
>