also, it was mentioned that arch has benefits..... what are those? On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 9:12 AM Michael wrote: > thank yout for the advice. > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 9:10 AM James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > >> Oh sorry, I must have buried the lead. I use systemd linux systems for >> my desktopy desktops (ubuntu and fedora mostly). Aka, the ones i check >> email, browse the web, play games on. For my developery desktops I do not >> use systemd, but that is born of pure frustration and malding. >> >> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 6:05 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss < >> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >> >>> So do you recommend system d for a desktop? It assms you don't and then >>> you do. >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 8:44 AM James Mcphee via PLUG-discuss < >>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>> >>>> two main reasons. >>>> >>>> one is ideological. the way systemd was put into the community rubbed >>>> a lot of people the wrong way. i won't get into the details, you can google >>>> for that whole war. no sense bringing it up again. >>>> >>>> two is simplicity. systemd is now over a million lines of code. to >>>> put that into perspective, going by the mythical man month numbers, a >>>> single good programmer can average understanding 2 pages of code a day in a >>>> complex codebase. That's 50 lines of code per day. from the same source, >>>> developers produce roughly 10 lines of code per day on average. now, >>>> there's a lot of give around these numbers, but you can get some idea of >>>> the scale of trying to get a handle on it if there's a bug you need to work >>>> with. >>>> >>>> a couple of bugs i've had to deal with in recent memory, extended udp >>>> handling in resolved and console output (which was actually correct to >>>> standard in systemd, but everyone had worked around the previous bug and >>>> that workaround wasn't compatible with the systemd implementation). >>>> neither of these were minor. the resolved bug prevented adoption of dnssec >>>> and the console thing required manual intervention of containers using it >>>> (docker, k8s, etc). i don't know if these things have been resolved either >>>> in systemd or the container systems. the problems in question forced a >>>> rearchitecture of our projects as fixes were not going to be fast enough >>>> and we haven't revisited them. for the resolved issue, the systemd project >>>> lead flat out said it wasn't a priority. for the container/console issue, >>>> you have to go back in time when the docker team wore "no, i will not merge >>>> your systemd patches into our codebase" tshirts to conventions. >>>> >>>> in conclusion, i use systemd for servers, desktops, and vms. I find it >>>> quite reliable in most cases. i think it does a better job with login, >>>> hal, service dependency, and mtab than the older system. for my use case >>>> of containers, it is entirely unnecessary and nothing but a headache. for >>>> my developer station, i mald quite enough and have no patience left to deal >>>> with it when it inevitably creates issues (oh, no for this thing you need >>>> to put your proxy settings 3 layers of abstraction down over here with this >>>> particular format) and tend to use the simplest system possible. >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 4:38 AM Michael via PLUG-discuss < >>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Why would u not want system d? >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 27, 2022 at 4:15 AM Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss < >>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, 2022-08-26 at 17:50 -0700, T. Zack Crawford via PLUG-discuss >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> > I would recommend not Manjaro because it's just a less-good arch >>>>>> linux. >>>>>> > I use Arch Linux. Depends what you're looking for, though. >>>>>> >>>>>> Or, Artix could be used in order to get the benefits of Arch without >>>>>> systemd. >>>>>> >>>>>> SteveT >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> :-)~MIKE~(-: >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> James McPhee >>>> jmcphe@gmail.com >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> :-)~MIKE~(-: >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> >> >> -- >> James McPhee >> jmcphe@gmail.com >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > -- > :-)~MIKE~(-: > -- :-)~MIKE~(-: