Saw this today, interesting. https://testmy.net/hoststats/spacex_starlink -mb On Tue, Aug 25, 2020 at 2:09 PM Jim wrote: > Wait until Musk's Starlink is available. Legacy phone companies offering > DSL won't have a chance. > On 8/22/20 9:05 AM, Michael Butash wrote: > > Exactly, this is a common scenario these days, where people are stuck in > their area with their crappy legacy isp's that are unwilling to invest in > upgrading, or even just fixing what they have today. Take back the power. > This is really on a per-ISP basis how good they are about doing so, but > cable providers seem WAY ahead of any traditional 2-wire telco. Cox was > actually one of the best I've worked with, they actually fix old cable > plants they've acquired over time that are sub-standard, at least around > Phoenix. > > Back in 2003 when I was looking at doing the residential isp thing, I > tried a few things, including mounting a big ass 2.4ghz antenna on my house > and doing some 802.11 testing outside to see what sort of performance I'd > get even from say my direct neighbor's house. It was crap, even using > proper cisco high-power commercial AP's at the time, so mostly scrapped > that as it would be mostly unsupportable and/or unsellable. There wasn't > any better other than Microwave, which was/is still quite pricey to do. > > Last year working with a Cali municipal ISP in Santa Monica, they do > business and residential last-mile fiber for 1-10gbe connections, typically > much cheaper than anyone there as they reuse their own city fiber used for > traffic and emergency systems all over the city. Any sort of construction, > particularly street cuts, gets uber expensive, so we started using some > wireless point to multipoint devices using technically 5g or mm-wave 60ghz > connections that can do I think up to 5 connections per unit, which were > small and non-descript. We dropped these on a stop light we were in > already, pointed at the general area we wanted to cover, deployed our first > customer in a week. It helped we *were* the city to do so, but not to say > you can't add a small tower in your backyard for the hood. > > This came with 1gbps rates to each end node, at roughly 1000ft line of > sight, so was a bit more ideal potentially for a residential wireless isp > type of setup, or at least localized instances, and just needed to get a > 1/10g single-mode ethernet connection to the multipoint unit. Perfect for > neighborhood isp setups, this was using Siklu components, but Ubiquiti > makes them too, I'm sure others. Even better after they start showing up > on Ebay cheap. > > I love this sort of networking stuff, working around the Man and such, > building ISP's - I'm always happy to help explore these concepts if someone > is serious about wanting to do so. Who's got the VC hookups? Will work > for bandwidth. > > -mb > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM Jim via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > >> I read something once about a lawyer who set up his own ISP. The phone >> company wouldn't supply DSL to the rural area where he lived. The only >> internet service available was dialup. He found that from the roof of his >> barn, he had line of sight to the building the law firm had its offices >> in. He found some interested neighbors and set up a microwave link from >> his barn to the office. The local phone company did lease him the lines he >> needed to provide DSL to his neighbors. >> On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote: >> >> Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The new >> High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now are pretty >> dang phenomenal and could lead to a decent wireless/wired hybrid internet >> service. >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss < >> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I would probably >>> go about forming some sort of local isp of sorts if enough folks around to >>> be worth it. It's not exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies >>> can figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and who pays for it, >>> ideally more than just you. >>> >>> Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with DS3's to >>> their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which really meant we >>> installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a third of it. These were >>> maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to get fiber to their >>> crib alone might be $30-50k. One customer in the middle of a lake >>> community was more to build into. Either they lock you into a 5yr or more >>> contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay it up front. >>> >>> Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did construction, >>> so I sat down with someone and we looked at getting fiber to my house for >>> some baller service myself, ideally with some employee discount... They >>> estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including >>> construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, >>> and mine wasn't terribly complex. I considered reselling to neighbors, but >>> back then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to >>> general consumers in 2003. I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay >>> that well. >>> >>> Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your house, >>> but at scale of cost most likely. Resell that to your neighbors for some >>> premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all >>> luddites. Some rural communities are doing this, when AT&T and others >>> aren't shutting them down. >>> >>> -mb >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss < >>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>> >>>> I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss < >>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> AT&T is still fscked up. The tech came out today and told me that the >>>>> cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the >>>>> modem talks to. He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not >>>>> available. He told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my >>>>> neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 miles up the road >>>>> from me in one direction. 3 miles down the road in the other direction is >>>>> a subdivision that has it. The fiber runs next to the highway less than a >>>>> hundred yards from here. I guess it's time to see what other options if >>>>> any are available. >>>>> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really >>>>> guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more >>>>> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional >>>>> copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on >>>>> the roads your neighborhood comes back to. Probably something in the >>>>> telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is. >>>>> Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can >>>>> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why >>>>> you're stuck at 12mbps. >>>>> >>>>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither >>>>> will happen likely. >>>>> >>>>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL >>>>> itself is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits. Combining more >>>>> physical channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, >>>>> and telcos wanted to support it. Someone would need to make the modem >>>>> too. Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or >>>>> slices or spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to >>>>> 24 or 32 channels for multi-gig capabilities. Same with ethernet, taking 8 >>>>> into a port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 >>>>> gigabit ethernet. >>>>> >>>>> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been >>>>> imho. Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the >>>>> owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from >>>>> the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13 >>>>> channels on one, and 13 channels on another. First I looked at it, and was >>>>> confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked >>>>> to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the original @home >>>>> cable isp company then supporting AT&T cable modems! The images were even >>>>> snowy, the service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't) >>>>> improve. When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me, so I had to >>>>> get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet >>>>> alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T. >>>>> >>>>> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't figure out >>>>> even coax. My experience supporting their customers for Cable Modem data >>>>> in '99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant >>>>> to your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke despite our rolling >>>>> their techs to fix it. Then they'd get angry at us for doing so and tell >>>>> us to stop rolling so many trucks to fix things. >>>>> >>>>> Sigh. >>>>> >>>>> Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox actually had >>>>> their shit (relatively) together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but >>>>> exactly what I'd expect of AT&T. Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the >>>>> media cartels now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll >>>>> never, ever, get better either. Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer >>>>> rights weren't really needed after all! >>>>> >>>>> -mb >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss < >>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> 150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T has to bond 2 pairs so I can get >>>>>> 25 Mbps. At least it's not comcast. I wonder how many pairs they could >>>>>> bond. Is there a technical limit or is it just a matter of how many they >>>>>> want to bond? As more people abandon landlines, that leaves more capacity >>>>>> for AT&T to bond multiple pairs for internet customers. >>>>>> On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> So I went through this moving from Cox to CenturyLink, and pretty >>>>>> much as described, fairly painless. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new service a few years >>>>>> ago, and we first hit the outside where CL ran their cabling in. It was an >>>>>> ancient telephony distribution from the 90's, and I've never had a >>>>>> land-line in my house since owning it in 2002. My house built in 95 at >>>>>> least used cat5 or like, so I have 4 pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need >>>>>> was just fine for bonded DSL He ripped out the old block, removing the >>>>>> house cabling but the one, and isolated the particular line we needed to my >>>>>> office where the modem lives, added an approved jack, done. Bonded dsl is >>>>>> 2x 2-wire channels, and they essentially load-balance 75+75mbps channels. >>>>>> I have tested this to n-by gigabit upstreams. >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so telcos built on this >>>>>> 100 years ago are a bit assed-out on passable high-frequency modulation >>>>>> schemas in use for data and other things to move beyond where they're at. >>>>>> DSL makes up for this, particularly when double up on wires it gets better, >>>>>> but still unshielded and prone to breakdown. Problem is mostly it isn't >>>>>> shielded, thus capable of very high frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, >>>>>> so it will never go much further than it has today whereas Cable scales to >>>>>> gigabits with channelization and QAM modulation at 32bit rates. >>>>>> >>>>>> VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per channel, and 2x of these >>>>>> get you to around CL's bonded DSL limits. This also includes your distance >>>>>> limitations to your local DSLAM, or regional router that terminates your >>>>>> data that degrades this eventually further you are from it, so it's a bit >>>>>> tricky. It's been stuck here for years, and pretty much at life end. This >>>>>> is why my cousin living half a mile from me can only get 75mbps from CL and >>>>>> I can with bonded @150mbps here. Old crap network there. >>>>>> >>>>>> Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you whatever to ~100GbE, but >>>>>> depends on how your provider does low-rate Passive Optical Networking (PON) >>>>>> today for residential fiber. Not quite the same as a business data >>>>>> network, but any fiber is better than copper networks. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is fiber vs. copper in new >>>>>> builds. I like my 25yr old house still, so no fiber for me ever. Unless I >>>>>> street cut my block for fiber myself, which I've considered, just need to >>>>>> get my neighbors to buy into me as their new gigabit isp. ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> -mb >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss < >>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Ok. I won't complain if I have to go out and buy a 4 conductor >>>>>>> phone cord. >>>>>>> On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My understanding of this is that they will activate the second pair >>>>>>> that is commonly used in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This will allow 2 >>>>>>> lines active to the device. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Changes inside might need to happen if your residence does not have >>>>>>> 4 wire (2 line) compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1 pair) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss < >>>>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL service. I've signed up for an >>>>>>>> upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25. I finally got someone there who would >>>>>>>> tell >>>>>>>> me why a technician visit is required for the upgrade. They're >>>>>>>> bonding 2 >>>>>>>> pairs to supply the faster speed here. I've read up online about >>>>>>>> DSL >>>>>>>> bonding. I understand that one pair will carry some of the data, >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> the other pair will carry some. But one thing I didn't find out >>>>>>>> was >>>>>>>> whether or not anything will change between the wall jack and the >>>>>>>> modem. Is everything done outside or do they have to come inside? >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> currently have a 2 conductor cord connecting my modem to the wall >>>>>>>> jack. >>>>>>>> Will that have to be replaced with a 4 conductor cord? Do they >>>>>>>> install >>>>>>>> an extra box outside or inside? I guess all will be answered on >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> 18th when the guy is scheduled to be here. I'm really curious how >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> works. >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you >>>>>>> from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Stephen >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> >> >> -- >> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from >> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. >> >> Stephen >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >