Wait until Musk's Starlink is available.  Legacy phone companies offering DSL won't have a chance. On 8/22/20 9:05 AM, Michael Butash wrote: > Exactly, this is a common scenario these days, where people are stuck > in their area with their crappy legacy isp's that are unwilling to > invest in upgrading, or even just fixing what they have today.  Take > back the power.  This is really on a per-ISP basis how good they are > about doing so, but cable providers seem WAY ahead of any traditional > 2-wire telco.  Cox was actually one of the best I've worked with, they > actually fix old cable plants they've acquired over time that are > sub-standard, at least around Phoenix. > > Back in 2003 when I was looking at doing the residential isp thing, I > tried a few things, including mounting a big ass 2.4ghz antenna on my > house and doing some 802.11 testing outside to see what sort of > performance I'd get even from say my direct neighbor's house.  It was > crap, even using proper cisco high-power commercial AP's at the time, > so mostly scrapped that as it would be mostly unsupportable and/or > unsellable.  There wasn't any better other than Microwave, which > was/is still quite pricey to do. > > Last year working with a Cali municipal ISP in Santa Monica, they do > business and residential last-mile fiber for 1-10gbe connections, > typically much cheaper than anyone there as they reuse their own city > fiber used for traffic and emergency systems all over the city.  Any > sort of construction, particularly street cuts, gets uber expensive, > so we started using some wireless point to multipoint devices using > technically 5g or mm-wave 60ghz connections that can do I think up to > 5 connections per unit, which were small and non-descript.  We dropped > these on a stop light we were in already, pointed at the general area > we wanted to cover, deployed our first customer in a week.  It helped > we *were* the city to do so, but not to say you can't add a small > tower in your backyard for the hood. > > This came with 1gbps rates to each end node, at roughly 1000ft line of > sight, so was a bit more ideal potentially for a residential wireless > isp type of setup, or at least localized instances, and just needed to > get a 1/10g single-mode ethernet connection to the multipoint unit. > Perfect for neighborhood isp setups, this was using Siklu components, > but Ubiquiti makes them too, I'm sure others. Even better after they > start showing up on Ebay cheap. > > I love this sort of networking stuff, working around the Man and such, > building ISP's - I'm always happy to help explore these concepts if > someone is serious about wanting to do so.  Who's got the VC hookups?  > Will work for bandwidth. > > -mb > > > On Fri, Aug 21, 2020 at 11:23 AM Jim via PLUG-discuss > > wrote: > > I read something once about a lawyer who set up his own ISP.  The > phone company wouldn't supply DSL to the rural area where he > lived.  The only internet service available was dialup.  He found > that from the roof of his barn, he had line of sight to the > building the law firm had its offices in.  He found some > interested neighbors and set up a microwave link from his barn to > the office.  The local phone company did lease him the lines he > needed to provide DSL to his neighbors. > > On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote: >> Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The >> new High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now >> are pretty dang phenomenal and could lead to a decent >> wireless/wired hybrid internet service. >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss >> > > wrote: >> >> I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I >> would probably go about forming some sort of local isp of >> sorts if enough folks around to be worth it.  It's not >> exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies can figure >> it out, it's all capital cost up front and who pays for it, >> ideally more than just you. >> >> Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with >> DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which >> really meant we installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave >> them a third of it.  These were maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, >> but the construction to get fiber to their crib alone might >> be $30-50k.  One customer in the middle of a lake community >> was more to build into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or >> more contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay >> it up front. >> >> Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did >> construction, so I sat down with someone and we looked at >> getting fiber to my house for some baller service myself, >> ideally with some employee discount...  They estimated >> roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including >> construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let >> alone service, and mine wasn't terribly complex.  I >> considered reselling to neighbors, but back then expensive >> gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to general >> consumers in 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't >> pay that well. >> >> Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to >> your house, but at scale of cost most likely.  Resell that to >> your neighbors for some premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but >> presumes your neighbors aren't all luddites.  Some rural >> communities are doing this, when AT&T and others aren't >> shutting them down. >> >> -mb >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss >> > > wrote: >> >> I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss >> > > wrote: >> >> AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and >> told me that the cutoff for the service is 4800 feet >> and I'm 5136 feet from the box the modem talks to.   >> He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not >> available.  He told me he has heard of no plans to >> bring fiber to my neighborhood, but said it is >> available in a small town 5 miles up the road from me >> in one direction.  3 miles down the road in the other >> direction is a subdivision that has it.  The fiber >> runs next to the highway less than a hundred yards >> from here.  I guess it's time to see what other >> options if any are available. >> >> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote: >>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they >>> can only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise >>> for residential telco, probably more modern >>> deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their >>> traditional copper distribution isn't built for it >>> unless commercial (their big PED on the roads your >>> neighborhood comes back to. Probably something in >>> the telcordia standards back to ma bell days that >>> says that is just how it is.  Since the plants are >>> non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can >>> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly >>> run/done, which is why you're stuck at 12mbps. >>> >>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just >>> run fiber, neither will happen likely. >>> >>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more >>> bandwidth when DSL itself is stuck in time now at >>> raw theoretical limits.  Combining more physical >>> channels as these were would be trivial, if copper >>> were available, and telcos wanted to support it. >>> Someone would need to make the modem too.  >>> Technically cable modems do this, literally taking >>> "channels" or slices or spectrum on the wire, and >>> load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32 >>> channels for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with >>> ethernet, taking 8 into a port-channel and balancing >>> across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit >>> ethernet. >>> >>> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, >>> and always has been imho.  Moving to San Jose in >>> '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the >>> owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax >>> ala modern cable from the outside, and required a >>> physical a/b switch box to switch between 13 >>> channels on one, and 13 channels on another.  First >>> I looked at it, and was confused enough I had to >>> call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked to >>> realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for >>> the original @home cable isp company then supporting >>> AT&T cable modems!  The images were even snowy, the >>> service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: >>> wouldn't) improve. When I asked about a cable modem, >>> they laughed at me, so I had to get DSL (phat >>> 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv >>> (yay usenet alt.binaries.video even then), and threw >>> up a finger to AT&T. >>> >>> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they >>> couldn't figure out even coax.  My experience >>> supporting their customers for Cable Modem data in >>> '99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better, >>> as if the cable plant to your house was broke, it >>> tended to just stay broke despite our rolling their >>> techs to fix it. Then they'd get angry at us for >>> doing so and tell us to stop rolling so many trucks >>> to fix things. >>> >>> Sigh. >>> >>> Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and >>> later Cox actually had their shit (relatively) >>> together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but >>> exactly what I'd expect of AT&T. Thanks to them (and >>> Comcast, all the media cartels now really) owning >>> the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll never, >>> ever, get better either.  Good thing Net Neutrality >>> and consumer rights weren't really needed after all! >>> >>> -mb >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via >>> PLUG-discuss >> > wrote: >>> >>> 150 Mbps, you're lucky.  Here AT&T has to bond  >>> 2 pairs so I can get 25 Mbps.    At least it's >>> not comcast.  I wonder how many pairs they could >>> bond.  Is there a technical limit or is it just >>> a matter of how many they want to bond?  As more >>> people abandon landlines, that leaves more >>> capacity for AT&T to bond multiple pairs for >>> internet customers. >>> >>> On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via >>> PLUG-discuss wrote: >>>> So I went through this moving from Cox to >>>> CenturyLink, and pretty much as described, >>>> fairly painless. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new >>>> service a few years ago, and we first hit the >>>> outside where CL ran their cabling in.  It was >>>> an ancient telephony distribution from the >>>> 90's, and I've never had a land-line in my >>>> house since owning it in 2002.  My house built >>>> in 95 at least used cat5 or like, so I have 4 >>>> pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need was just >>>> fine for bonded DSL  He ripped out the old >>>> block, removing the house cabling but the one, >>>> and isolated the particular line we needed to >>>> my office where the modem lives, added an >>>> approved jack, done.  Bonded dsl is 2x 2-wire >>>> channels, and they essentially load-balance >>>> 75+75mbps channels.  I have tested this to n-by >>>> gigabit upstreams. >>>> >>>> Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so >>>> telcos built on this 100 years ago are a bit >>>> assed-out on passable high-frequency modulation >>>> schemas in use for data and other things to >>>> move beyond where they're at.  DSL makes up for >>>> this, particularly when double up on wires it >>>> gets better, but still unshielded and prone to >>>> breakdown.  Problem is mostly it isn't >>>> shielded, thus capable of very high frequency >>>> modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so it will never >>>> go much further than it has today whereas Cable >>>> scales to gigabits with channelization and QAM >>>> modulation at 32bit rates. >>>> >>>> VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per >>>> channel, and 2x of these get you to around CL's >>>> bonded DSL limits.  This also includes your >>>> distance limitations to your local DSLAM, or >>>> regional router that terminates your data that >>>> degrades this eventually further you are from >>>> it, so it's a bit tricky.  It's been stuck here >>>> for years, and pretty much at life end.  This >>>> is why my cousin living half a mile from me can >>>> only get 75mbps from CL and I can with bonded >>>> @150mbps here.  Old crap network there. >>>> >>>> Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you >>>> whatever to ~100GbE, but depends on how your >>>> provider does low-rate Passive Optical >>>> Networking (PON) today for residential fiber.  >>>> Not quite the same as a business data network, >>>> but any fiber is better than copper networks. >>>> >>>> Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is >>>> fiber vs. copper in new builds.  I like my 25yr >>>> old house still, so no fiber for me ever.  >>>> Unless I street cut my block for fiber myself, >>>> which I've considered, just need to get my >>>> neighbors to buy into me as their new gigabit >>>> isp.  ;) >>>> >>>> -mb >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via >>>> PLUG-discuss >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Ok.  I won't complain if I have to go out >>>> and buy a 4 conductor phone cord. >>>> >>>> On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote: >>>>> My understanding of this is that they will >>>>> activate the second pair that is commonly >>>>> used in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This >>>>> will allow 2 lines active to the device. >>>>> >>>>> Changes inside might need to happen if >>>>> your residence does not have 4 wire (2 >>>>> line) compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the >>>>> jack vs 1 pair) >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via >>>>> PLUG-discuss >>>>> >>>> > >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL >>>>> service. I've signed up for an >>>>> upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I finally >>>>> got someone there who would tell >>>>> me why a technician visit is required >>>>> for the upgrade. They're bonding 2 >>>>> pairs to supply the faster speed here. >>>>> I've read up online about DSL >>>>> bonding.  I understand that one pair >>>>> will carry some of the data, and >>>>> the other pair will carry some.  But >>>>> one thing I didn't find out was >>>>> whether or not anything will change >>>>> between the wall jack and the >>>>> modem.  Is everything done outside or >>>>> do they have to come inside?  I >>>>> currently have a 2 conductor cord >>>>> connecting my modem to the wall jack. >>>>> Will that have to be replaced with a 4 >>>>> conductor cord?  Do they install >>>>> an extra box outside or inside?  I >>>>> guess all will be answered on the >>>>> 18th when the guy is scheduled to be >>>>> here.   I'm really curious how this >>>>> works. >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>>>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>> >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to >>>>> change your mail settings: >>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm >>>>> clock, will prevent you from rolling over >>>>> and going back to sleep after you hit the >>>>> snooze button. >>>>> >>>>> Stephen >>>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change >>>> your mail settings: >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your >>> mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail >> settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> >> >> -- >> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you >> from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the >> snooze button. >> >> Stephen >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list -PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >