I read something once about a lawyer who set up his own ISP.  The phone company wouldn't supply DSL to the rural area where he lived.  The only internet service available was dialup.  He found that from the roof of his barn, he had line of sight to the building the law firm had its offices in.  He found some interested neighbors and set up a microwave link from his barn to the office.  The local phone company did lease him the lines he needed to provide DSL to his neighbors. On 8/20/20 2:28 PM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote: > Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The new > High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now are > pretty dang phenomenal and could lead to a decent wireless/wired > hybrid internet service. > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss > > wrote: > > I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I would > probably go about forming some sort of local isp of sorts if > enough folks around to be worth it.  It's not exactly hard, > backward telcos and cable companies can figure it out, it's all > capital cost up front and who pays for it, ideally more than just you. > > Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with > DS3's to their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which > really meant we installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a > third of it.  These were maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the > construction to get fiber to their crib alone might be $30-50k.  > One customer in the middle of a lake community was more to build > into.  Either they lock you into a 5yr or more contract to make > that construction cost back, or you pay it up front. > > Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did > construction, so I sat down with someone and we looked at getting > fiber to my house for some baller service myself, ideally with > some employee discount...  They estimated roughly $35k in cost > alone for construction, including construction street cuts to bury > fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, and mine wasn't > terribly complex.  I considered reselling to neighbors, but back > then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to > general consumers in 2003.  I stuck with my cable modem, they > didn't pay that well. > > Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your > house, but at scale of cost most likely. Resell that to your > neighbors for some premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes > your neighbors aren't all luddites.  Some rural communities are > doing this, when AT&T and others aren't shutting them down. > > -mb > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss > > wrote: > > I'd brush up on fiber splicing  lol > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss > > wrote: > > AT&T is still fscked up.  The tech came out today and told > me that the cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm > 5136 feet from the box the modem talks to.   He ran some > test anyway and confirmed it's not available.  He told me > he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my > neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 > miles up the road from me in one direction.  3 miles down > the road in the other direction is a subdivision that has > it.  The fiber runs next to the highway less than a > hundred yards from here.  I guess it's time to see what > other options if any are available. > > On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote: >> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can >> only really guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for >> residential telco, probably more modern deployments a >> full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional copper >> distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their >> big PED on the roads your neighborhood comes back to.  >> Probably something in the telcordia standards back to ma >> bell days that says that is just how it is.  Since the >> plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it >> can only modulate so high, particularly when poorly >> run/done, which is why you're stuck at 12mbps. >> >> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run >> fiber, neither will happen likely. >> >> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth >> when DSL itself is stuck in time now at raw theoretical >> limits.  Combining more physical channels as these were >> would be trivial, if copper were available, and telcos >> wanted to support it.  Someone would need to make the >> modem too.  Technically cable modems do this, literally >> taking "channels" or slices or spectrum on the wire, and >> load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32 channels >> for multi-gig capabilities.  Same with ethernet, taking 8 >> into a port-channel and balancing across them, whether >> 100 megabit or 400 gigabit ethernet. >> >> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and >> always has been imho.  Moving to San Jose in '99, there >> was AT&T Cable TV installed by the owners, which >> consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable >> from the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box >> to switch between 13 channels on one, and 13 channels on >> another.  First I looked at it, and was confused enough I >> had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked >> to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the >> original @home cable isp company then supporting AT&T >> cable modems!  The images were even snowy, the service >> was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't) >> improve.  When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed >> at me, so I had to get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), >> disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet >> alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T. >> >> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't >> figure out even coax.  My experience supporting their >> customers for Cable Modem data in '99, relatively new >> tech then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant to >> your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke >> despite our rolling their techs to fix it.  Then they'd >> get angry at us for doing so and tell us to stop rolling >> so many trucks to fix things. >> >> Sigh. >> >> Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox >> actually had their shit (relatively) together, this was >> an inconceivable atrocity but exactly what I'd expect of >> AT&T.  Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the media cartels >> now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars, >> it'll never, ever, get better either.  Good thing Net >> Neutrality and consumer rights weren't really needed >> after all! >> >> -mb >> >> >> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss >> > > wrote: >> >> 150 Mbps, you're lucky.  Here AT&T has to bond  2 >> pairs so I can get 25 Mbps.    At least it's not >> comcast.  I wonder how many pairs they could bond.  >> Is there a technical limit or is it just a matter of >> how many they want to bond?  As more people abandon >> landlines, that leaves more capacity for AT&T to bond >> multiple pairs for internet customers. >> >> On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss >> wrote: >>> So I went through this moving from Cox to >>> CenturyLink, and pretty much as described, fairly >>> painless. >>> >>> >>> >>> I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new >>> service a few years ago, and we first hit the >>> outside where CL ran their cabling in.  It was an >>> ancient telephony distribution from the 90's, and >>> I've never had a land-line in my house since owning >>> it in 2002.  My house built in 95 at least used cat5 >>> or like, so I have 4 pairs to every room, so 2 pairs >>> I need was just fine for bonded DSL  He ripped out >>> the old block, removing the house cabling but the >>> one, and isolated the particular line we needed to >>> my office where the modem lives, added an approved >>> jack, done.  Bonded dsl is 2x 2-wire channels, and >>> they essentially load-balance 75+75mbps channels.  I >>> have tested this to n-by gigabit upstreams. >>> >>> Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so >>> telcos built on this 100 years ago are a bit >>> assed-out on passable high-frequency modulation >>> schemas in use for data and other things to move >>> beyond where they're at.  DSL makes up for this, >>> particularly when double up on wires it gets better, >>> but still unshielded and prone to breakdown.  >>> Problem is mostly it isn't shielded, thus capable of >>> very high frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, so >>> it will never go much further than it has today >>> whereas Cable scales to gigabits with channelization >>> and QAM modulation at 32bit rates. >>> >>> VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per channel, >>> and 2x of these get you to around CL's bonded DSL >>> limits.  This also includes your distance >>> limitations to your local DSLAM, or regional router >>> that terminates your data that degrades this >>> eventually further you are from it, so it's a bit >>> tricky.  It's been stuck here for years, and pretty >>> much at life end.  This is why my cousin living half >>> a mile from me can only get 75mbps from CL and I can >>> with bonded @150mbps here.  Old crap network there. >>> >>> Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you whatever >>> to ~100GbE, but depends on how your provider does >>> low-rate Passive Optical Networking (PON) today for >>> residential fiber. Not quite the same as a business >>> data network, but any fiber is better than copper >>> networks. >>> >>> Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is fiber >>> vs. copper in new builds.  I like my 25yr old house >>> still, so no fiber for me ever. Unless I street cut >>> my block for fiber myself, which I've considered, >>> just need to get my neighbors to buy into me as >>> their new gigabit isp.  ;) >>> >>> -mb >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> Ok.  I won't complain if I have to go out and >>> buy a 4 conductor phone cord. >>> >>> On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote: >>>> My understanding of this is that they will >>>> activate the second pair that is commonly used >>>> in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This will allow >>>> 2 lines active to the device. >>>> >>>> Changes inside might need to happen if your >>>> residence does not have 4 wire (2 line) >>>> compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1 pair) >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via >>>> PLUG-discuss >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL >>>> service.  I've signed up for an >>>> upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25.  I finally got >>>> someone there who would tell >>>> me why a technician visit is required for >>>> the upgrade. They're bonding 2 >>>> pairs to supply the faster speed here.  >>>> I've read up online about DSL >>>> bonding.  I understand that one pair will >>>> carry some of the data, and >>>> the other pair will carry some.  But one >>>> thing I didn't find out was >>>> whether or not anything will change between >>>> the wall jack and the >>>> modem.  Is everything done outside or do >>>> they have to come inside?  I >>>> currently have a 2 conductor cord >>>> connecting my modem to the wall jack. >>>> Will that have to be replaced with a 4 >>>> conductor cord?  Do they install >>>> an extra box outside or inside?  I guess >>>> all will be answered on the >>>> 18th when the guy is scheduled to be >>>> here.   I'm really curious how this >>>> works. >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change >>>> your mail settings: >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm >>>> clock, will prevent you from rolling over and >>>> going back to sleep after you hit the snooze >>>> button. >>>> >>>> Stephen >>>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >>> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your >>> mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list -PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - >> PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail >> settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - > PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > -- > A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from > rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. > > Stephen > > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss