Part of me really would enjoy setting something like this up. The new High speed and dedicated wireless/microwave tools we have now are pretty dang phenomenal and could lead to a decent wireless/wired hybrid internet service. On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 12:19 PM Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > I'm not sure I could live somewhere with crap internet, I would probably > go about forming some sort of local isp of sorts if enough folks around to > be worth it. It's not exactly hard, backward telcos and cable companies > can figure it out, it's all capital cost up front and who pays for it, > ideally more than just you. > > Circa 2003 at cox business, we had some baller customers with DS3's to > their house (one ran an isp in his basement), which really meant we > installed an OC3 fiber node there, and gave them a third of it. These were > maybe $2000-3000/mo circuits, but the construction to get fiber to their > crib alone might be $30-50k. One customer in the middle of a lake > community was more to build into. Either they lock you into a 5yr or more > contract to make that construction cost back, or you pay it up front. > > Back then, I worked a lot with the project group that did construction, so > I sat down with someone and we looked at getting fiber to my house for some > baller service myself, ideally with some employee discount... They > estimated roughly $35k in cost alone for construction, including > construction street cuts to bury fiber, permitting, etc, let alone service, > and mine wasn't terribly complex. I considered reselling to neighbors, but > back then expensive gigabit options probably weren't too attractive to > general consumers in 2003. I stuck with my cable modem, they didn't pay > that well. > > Today that would probably be equivalent to a 10GbE+ drop to your house, > but at scale of cost most likely. Resell that to your neighbors for some > premium bandwidth, everyone wins, but presumes your neighbors aren't all > luddites. Some rural communities are doing this, when AT&T and others > aren't shutting them down. > > -mb > > > On Thu, Aug 20, 2020 at 9:19 AM Bob Elzer via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > >> I'd brush up on fiber splicing lol >> >> >> On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 1:40 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss < >> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >> >>> AT&T is still fscked up. The tech came out today and told me that the >>> cutoff for the service is 4800 feet and I'm 5136 feet from the box the >>> modem talks to. He ran some test anyway and confirmed it's not >>> available. He told me he has heard of no plans to bring fiber to my >>> neighborhood, but said it is available in a small town 5 miles up the road >>> from me in one direction. 3 miles down the road in the other direction is >>> a subdivision that has it. The fiber runs next to the highway less than a >>> hundred yards from here. I guess it's time to see what other options if >>> any are available. >>> On 8/16/20 10:39 AM, Michael Butash wrote: >>> >>> I think it mostly comes down to the fact that they can only really >>> guarantee 2 or 4 wires to a premise for residential telco, probably more >>> modern deployments a full 8 wires (ala CatX), though their traditional >>> copper distribution isn't built for it unless commercial (their big PED on >>> the roads your neighborhood comes back to. Probably something in the >>> telcordia standards back to ma bell days that says that is just how it is. >>> Since the plants are non-shielded, non-twisted pair cabling too, it can >>> only modulate so high, particularly when poorly run/done, which is why >>> you're stuck at 12mbps. >>> >>> If they had to change your home copper, they'd just run fiber, neither >>> will happen likely. >>> >>> The DSL bonding is already a hack to get more bandwidth when DSL itself >>> is stuck in time now at raw theoretical limits. Combining more physical >>> channels as these were would be trivial, if copper were available, and >>> telcos wanted to support it. Someone would need to make the modem too. >>> Technically cable modems do this, literally taking "channels" or slices or >>> spectrum on the wire, and load-balancing them internally, up to 24 or 32 >>> channels for multi-gig capabilities. Same with ethernet, taking 8 into a >>> port-channel and balancing across them, whether 100 megabit or 400 gigabit >>> ethernet. >>> >>> AT&T is the most ghetto provider out there still, and always has been >>> imho. Moving to San Jose in '99, there was AT&T Cable TV installed by the >>> owners, which consisted of 2x of your standard coax ala modern cable from >>> the outside, and required a physical a/b switch box to switch between 13 >>> channels on one, and 13 channels on another. First I looked at it, and was >>> confused enough I had to call them and ask wtf the cable "channels" worked >>> to realize just how bad it was, and I then worked for the original @home >>> cable isp company then supporting AT&T cable modems! The images were even >>> snowy, the service was so bad even a tech couldn't (read: wouldn't) >>> improve. When I asked about a cable modem, they laughed at me, so I had to >>> get DSL (phat 1.5mbps then), disconnected the useless cable tv (yay usenet >>> alt.binaries.video even then), and threw up a finger to AT&T. >>> >>> I can only imagine how bad AT&T's DSL is if they couldn't figure out >>> even coax. My experience supporting their customers for Cable Modem data >>> in '99, relatively new tech then, wasn't much better, as if the cable plant >>> to your house was broke, it tended to just stay broke despite our rolling >>> their techs to fix it. Then they'd get angry at us for doing so and tell >>> us to stop rolling so many trucks to fix things. >>> >>> Sigh. >>> >>> Having grown up in Phoenix where Dimension, and later Cox actually had >>> their shit (relatively) together, this was an inconceivable atrocity but >>> exactly what I'd expect of AT&T. Thanks to them (and Comcast, all the >>> media cartels now really) owning the FCC now with your tax dollars, it'll >>> never, ever, get better either. Good thing Net Neutrality and consumer >>> rights weren't really needed after all! >>> >>> -mb >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Aug 15, 2020 at 12:42 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss < >>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>> >>>> 150 Mbps, you're lucky. Here AT&T has to bond 2 pairs so I can get 25 >>>> Mbps. At least it's not comcast. I wonder how many pairs they could >>>> bond. Is there a technical limit or is it just a matter of how many they >>>> want to bond? As more people abandon landlines, that leaves more capacity >>>> for AT&T to bond multiple pairs for internet customers. >>>> On 8/10/20 11:21 AM, Michael Butash via PLUG-discuss wrote: >>>> >>>> So I went through this moving from Cox to CenturyLink, and pretty much >>>> as described, fairly painless. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I had scheduled a CL tech to install me for new service a few years >>>> ago, and we first hit the outside where CL ran their cabling in. It was an >>>> ancient telephony distribution from the 90's, and I've never had a >>>> land-line in my house since owning it in 2002. My house built in 95 at >>>> least used cat5 or like, so I have 4 pairs to every room, so 2 pairs I need >>>> was just fine for bonded DSL He ripped out the old block, removing the >>>> house cabling but the one, and isolated the particular line we needed to my >>>> office where the modem lives, added an approved jack, done. Bonded dsl is >>>> 2x 2-wire channels, and they essentially load-balance 75+75mbps channels. >>>> I have tested this to n-by gigabit upstreams. >>>> >>>> Phone only guarantees 2 wires are available, so telcos built on this >>>> 100 years ago are a bit assed-out on passable high-frequency modulation >>>> schemas in use for data and other things to move beyond where they're at. >>>> DSL makes up for this, particularly when double up on wires it gets better, >>>> but still unshielded and prone to breakdown. Problem is mostly it isn't >>>> shielded, thus capable of very high frequency modulation ala Cable/DOCSIS, >>>> so it will never go much further than it has today whereas Cable scales to >>>> gigabits with channelization and QAM modulation at 32bit rates. >>>> >>>> VDSL tech is capable of roughly 75mbps per channel, and 2x of these get >>>> you to around CL's bonded DSL limits. This also includes your distance >>>> limitations to your local DSLAM, or regional router that terminates your >>>> data that degrades this eventually further you are from it, so it's a bit >>>> tricky. It's been stuck here for years, and pretty much at life end. This >>>> is why my cousin living half a mile from me can only get 75mbps from CL and >>>> I can with bonded @150mbps here. Old crap network there. >>>> >>>> Fiber, particularly Single Mode, gives you whatever to ~100GbE, but >>>> depends on how your provider does low-rate Passive Optical Networking (PON) >>>> today for residential fiber. Not quite the same as a business data >>>> network, but any fiber is better than copper networks. >>>> >>>> Why Centurylink's only hope for the future is fiber vs. copper in new >>>> builds. I like my 25yr old house still, so no fiber for me ever. Unless I >>>> street cut my block for fiber myself, which I've considered, just need to >>>> get my neighbors to buy into me as their new gigabit isp. ;) >>>> >>>> -mb >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 1:27 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss < >>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ok. I won't complain if I have to go out and buy a 4 conductor phone >>>>> cord. >>>>> On 8/7/20 9:05 AM, Stephen Partington wrote: >>>>> >>>>> My understanding of this is that they will activate the second pair >>>>> that is commonly used in the RJ-43 port in your wall. This will allow 2 >>>>> lines active to the device. >>>>> >>>>> Changes inside might need to happen if your residence does not have 4 >>>>> wire (2 line) compatibility. (IE 2 pairs to the jack vs 1 pair) >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 9:10 PM Jim via PLUG-discuss < >>>>> plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Where I live, I get AT&T for my DSL service. I've signed up for an >>>>>> upgrade from 10 Mbps to 25. I finally got someone there who would >>>>>> tell >>>>>> me why a technician visit is required for the upgrade. They're >>>>>> bonding 2 >>>>>> pairs to supply the faster speed here. I've read up online about DSL >>>>>> bonding. I understand that one pair will carry some of the data, and >>>>>> the other pair will carry some. But one thing I didn't find out was >>>>>> whether or not anything will change between the wall jack and the >>>>>> modem. Is everything done outside or do they have to come inside? I >>>>>> currently have a 2 conductor cord connecting my modem to the wall >>>>>> jack. >>>>>> Will that have to be replaced with a 4 conductor cord? Do they >>>>>> install >>>>>> an extra box outside or inside? I guess all will be answered on the >>>>>> 18th when the guy is scheduled to be here. I'm really curious how >>>>>> this >>>>>> works. >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from >>>>> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. >>>>> >>>>> Stephen >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen