Ah, that's an interesting conundrum, haven't had to setup a website in a good while since I let lapse my digitalocean instance, wasn't so much an issue there. Guess there's always reverse proxies for that if a necessity. It was just easier to put stuff like that out on a cheap instance somewhere I used occasionally than fight cox anyways. -mb On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 8:18 PM, Stephen Partington wrote: > the only thing I care about for HTTP at all is my Synology letsencypt cert > call requires 80, and only 80. > > On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Michael Butash > wrote: > >> Agreed here about just doing https, I've just always used straight >> ipsec/openvpn, or later a https sslvpn to connect home to things when >> allowed. Never really had a need otherwise to host 80 or smtp, and back >> then they even blocked 443. At some point later they stopped filtering >> https (think Partington mentioned this - thanks again!), which made life >> easier at least to present some form of web externally, so long as your >> users were smart enough to put https:// first, or use a redirect service >> in front as mentioned. >> >> Past few years, I use https://www.zerotier.com for connecting all my >> hosts vs. traditional vpn to connect behind firewalls/filters, which gives >> me always on vpn between any of my hosts that run the client and join my >> SDN network there. Runs on pretty much everything, including my various >> pi/arm linux systems, android, whatever really, and give you 100 clients >> for free. This gives me essentially a layer 2 network between all my >> hosts, minus multicast propagation (damn mdns address restrictions). >> >> I love this service, and recently noticed they have a hardware offering >> on kickstarter even. >> >> -mb >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 6:38 PM, Stephen Partington > > wrote: >> >>> My solution is to run everything on https with a lets encrypt cert and a >>> port 80 to 443 redirect via my Domain registrar. >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 6:30 PM, der.hans wrote: >>> >>>> Am 19. Nov, 2017 schwätzte kelly stephenson so: >>>> >>>> moin moin, >>>> >>>> Cox blocks incoming port 80 requests, what is your plan to get around >>>>> this >>>>> for your web site you plan on hosting? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Cox residential blocks ports. I have gotten around it for years by not >>>> using Cox residential :). >>>> >>>> Most of the time I've used Cox business, which will allow all ports. You >>>> might have to request 80 and 25 get unblocked. >>>> >>>> I have also used Century Link residential, which will also allow all >>>> ports. You will have to specifically request unblocking for port 25. >>>> >>>> Both will let you know if they're getting complaints about your web or >>>> SMTP services. >>>> >>>> Both give you a static IP and the option to rent out a block. You'll >>>> have >>>> to contact them to request RR records. >>>> >>>> In my experience, Cox doesn't understand the concept of a static IP. I >>>> have had 3 yanked out from me with at most a couple days notice. One was >>>> zero notice because they didn't notice my IP was in use. That was years >>>> ago, but I was obviously massively underimpressed with Cox customer >>>> service. >>>> >>>> ciao, >>>> >>>> der.hans >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 19, 2017 7:01 PM, "Eric Oyen" wrote: >>>>> >>>>> oh joy! they would make you have to adapt to a new technology. >>>>>> >>>>>> -eric >>>>>> from the central offices of the Technomage Guild, You can't get there >>>>>> from >>>>>> here Dept. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 19, 2017, at 6:59 PM, Stephen Partington wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I am looking at a node.js nginx build because my current hosting >>>>>> company >>>>>> won't support node.js without a Vps and I cannot wrap my head around >>>>>> the >>>>>> Google cloud app engine yet for posting node.js yet. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 19, 2017 6:50 PM, "Eric Oyen" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> yep. :) >>>>>>> I am going to have to setup a DMZ on my personal router pointed to a >>>>>>> specific machine. there I will have to setup the web server, a site >>>>>>> (which >>>>>>> I will need to register) and a few other goodies. nice thing about my >>>>>>> router, I can assign separate subnet segments to each port. this >>>>>>> way, if >>>>>>> anyone gets control of the web server, about all they can see is that >>>>>>> subnet (and the administrative interface for the router will >>>>>>> definitely be >>>>>>> locked out on that port, so no control there either). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> my only questiild, IT support Dept. >>>>>>> on, what to use as a web server (I am also looking at putting an SDR >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> there for remote hf/vhf/uhf/shf reception). I was thinking a >>>>>>> raspberry pie >>>>>>> late generation. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -eric >>>>>>> from the central offices of the Technomage Gu >>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2017, at 5:48 PM, Stephen Partington wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I got in when they were around 2 tb. And since then they reset it to >>>>>>> unlimited. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Funny thing is running my own web server of an SSD cached Mac mini >>>>>>> runs >>>>>>> like a champ. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2017 5:29 PM, "Eric Oyen" wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> well, >>>>>>>> it took a little thinking to come up with the figure they quote for >>>>>>>> monthly usage. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Consider that a typical 1080p Hi-def video stream is about 750 >>>>>>>> Kb/sec. >>>>>>>> if left going 24/7 for 30 days, that would be 2.7 GB per hour or >>>>>>>> about 64 >>>>>>>> Gb per day. over the course of a month, that is: 1.944 Tb. now, so >>>>>>>> far as I >>>>>>>> know, no one leaves their TV on live stream 24/7 for 30 days. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> so, given normal usage patterns (tv watching of about 20 hours per >>>>>>>> week), plus web browsing and email, etc, 1 TB would be max typical >>>>>>>> for a >>>>>>>> standard residential circuit. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> now, I do have a room mate who falls asleep with the tv streaming >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> content or another, so it's quite possible that we are over 1 TB >>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>> last 30 days. Since I am on biz class here, I don't have to worry >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> that 1 TB cap. :) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -eric >>>>>>>> from the central offices of the Technomage Guild, Internet streaming >>>>>>>> Dept. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2017, at 4:31 PM, Brian Cluff wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wow... so they are literally selling you a connection that you can >>>>>>>> exceed your monthly allowance in a little over 15 minutes of use if >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> could find a service that would saturate your connection. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> LAME! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brian Cluff >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 11/19/2017 03:26 PM, Stephen Partington wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Wow. Looks like they did change it right after I got it. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> https://www.cox.com/aboutus/policies/speeds-and-data-plans.h >>>>>>>> tml?zip=85228 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2017 12:48 PM, "Jerry Snitselaar" >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun Nov 19 17, Stephen Partington wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Last I read gigablast was 2t not 1. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What it shows on the page for services and offers is 1024gb. >>>>>>>>> Could be a >>>>>>>>> typo, >>>>>>>>> but the offer details page also said all plans offer 1024gb data. >>>>>>>>> Will >>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>> out when I call. :) Would be nice if it was 2t, that would mean I >>>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>>> drop >>>>>>>>> the $30 I pay for the extra 500gb cushion each month, and >>>>>>>>> basically pay >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> I'm paying now to get gigablast. I do think I remember seeing >>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>> one point where it was 2t, but that was a while ago. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2017 12:05 PM, wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat Nov 18 17, Stephen Partington wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is what i had before gig. And the service was great. But i >>>>>>>>>> use way >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> more than 1t of data in a month. So gig was actually a savings. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> They have capped new gigablast subscribers with the 1tb limit >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> unfortunately. >>>>>>>>>> If you had it prior to late Sept, then you continue to get the >>>>>>>>>> unlimited >>>>>>>>>> data. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Nov 18, 2017 4:38 PM, wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am using Cox Communications "Ultimate" package. 300 Mbps >>>>>>>>>>> download, >>>>>>>>>>> 30 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Mbps upload, with measured values usually 5 to 10 percent above >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> values. Also I get 1 Tbyte usage per month. the price is $100 >>>>>>>>>>>> per >>>>>>>>>>>> month. >>>>>>>>>>>> I am very pleased with this service. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --------- Original Message --------- >>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Cox Gigablast >>>>>>>>>>>> From: "Eric Oyen" >>>>>>>>>>>> Date: 11/18/17 10:48 am >>>>>>>>>>>> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" >>>>>>>>>>> rg> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> let me dig up the sales number for cox business. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I couldn't find the phone number directly, but there is this >>>>>>>>>>>> site >>>>>>>>>>>> here: >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.cox.com/business/contact-us/contact-sales.html >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I just called them through their residential number. they gave >>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>> number for direct contact: 800-529-5118 <(800)%20529-5118> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hope this helps. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> btw, I am on cox business premier service. it's 50 mbits/11 >>>>>>>>>>>> mbits >>>>>>>>>>>> for only >>>>>>>>>>>> $79 monthly. I also use chrome cast here from youtube tv for >>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>> $35 a >>>>>>>>>>>> month. so, I am definitely spending over $140 less than I would >>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> residential service (including tv). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> hope this helps. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Eric Oyen >>>>>>>>>>>> From the central offices of the Technomage Guild, Support >>>>>>>>>>>> Referrals >>>>>>>>>>>> Dept. >>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 18, 2017, at 10:33 AM, Snyder, Alexander J wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I think I'll take you up on that. Any information on how I get >>>>>>>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>>>>>> promised land would be very welcome! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>> Alex. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S8+ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 18, 2017 10:20, "Eric Oyen" >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> you might have to call cox business and speak to Jame Hidalgo. >>>>>>>>>>>> He is >>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> contact over there. btw, business class internet doesn't suffer >>>>>>>>>>>>> from the >>>>>>>>>>>>> hard cap that you got charged for this last time out. they >>>>>>>>>>>>> might >>>>>>>>>>>>> even >>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>> access to the fiber that you want. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> now, sure, most of the tier 1 droids at residential customer >>>>>>>>>>>>> service are >>>>>>>>>>>>> good people. However, anyone who has ever worked a CSr desk >>>>>>>>>>>>> knows >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>>>> all have to run from a script. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway, if you call Jame Hidalgo at cox business, please tell >>>>>>>>>>>>> him >>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>> referred you. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Eric OYen >>>>>>>>>>>>> from the central office of the Technomage Guild, Internet >>>>>>>>>>>>> services >>>>>>>>>>>>> referrals Dept. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 18, 2017, at 7:44 AM, techlists@phpcoderusa.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Asked for a supervisor. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2017-11-17 12:38, Snyder, Alexander J wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kind of irritated by this ... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cox lays fiber in my subdivision, has the service trucks >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrapped in >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Gigablast" vinyl adverts ... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Service folk gladly sharing that "it's for gigablast" ... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I did my giddy dance, nerdgasm, the whole 9 yards ... >>>>>>>>>>>>> #ShutUpAndTakeMyMoney >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I called them each week and spoke to customer service folks >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> seemed >>>>>>>>>>>>> to be less informed than the guy last week ... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bro ... that was 6 months ago. >:-( >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The only major development was Cox billing me for going over >>>>>>>>>>>>> 1TB a >>>>>>>>>>>>> bandwidth a month. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Friends in Auhtukee and Glendale have it, and are quite happy >>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't I have this happiness? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>>> AloneAndHopless ... >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> ;-) >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Alex. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S8+ >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 17, 2017 12:13, "Jerry Snitselaar" >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone using this service? It looks like it finally arrived in >>>>>>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> neighborhood. I'd prefer to try Google Fiber, but that seems >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dead in the valley since their competitors complained about >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> deals >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they were able to make with the cities. So tempted to upgrade >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss >>>>>>>>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>>>>> list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, >>>>>>>>>>>> unsubscribe, >>>>>>>>>>>> or to >>>>>>>>>>>> change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>> mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> # https://www.LuftHans.com https://www.PhxLinux.org >>>> # Generation Z: the first generation for which a zombie apocalypse >>>> # is possible ( even though it still isn't ) >>>> --------------------------------------------------- >>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from >>> rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. >>> >>> Stephen >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >>> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >> > > > > -- > A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from > rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. > > Stephen > > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >