Apparently both GRUB and some 3rd party Windows software make use of something called the "embedding area" of a hard disk and not standardized. The result is apparently a possibility for both to use the same space and for that software to make GRUB unable to boot the system. http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/08/28/2112208/Some-Windows-Apps-Make-GRUB-2-Unbootable http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/ucgi/~cjwatson/blosxom/debian/2010-08-28-windows-applications-making-grub2-unbootable.html Be sure to read the comments to the Slashdot story. With no standard governing use of that non-partitioned area of the disk, it is perhaps not surprising that is is not a good idea to depend on it. Since I doubt the proprietary world will do anything about it, I guess I hope that GRUB will change to avoid the problem. Has anyone seen this happen? What system/software? I am now wondering if problem we saw with Roger's machine at the installfest could be related. I don't think so, but it might impact the new HP machine he bought. See the HP article reference and the fact the machine came with 4 primary partitions already in place (only noting they are using some of the new techniques). -- Dazed_75 a.k.a. Larry The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive. - Thomas Jefferson