On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 10:32 PM, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 7:10 PM, Lisa Kachold > wrote: > > I don't hire people on the basis of either certification or education > > and neither did a great number of the original ISP's or development > > firms. > > > > I have a few certs (have gotten various certs through the years) but I > > don't believe they show anything other than I can certify. > > > > And I have hired people who had Masters in CS, all manner of Certs, > > who would NOT work, taking responsibility for nothing or who were > > essentially, "academics" rather than engineers or administrators, and > > could not perform if/then/therefore logical troubleshooting or real > > time emergency "obnosis" on the front lines during regular production > > linux work. > > > > If you want education, right now is the perfect time to get a degree, > > I beg to differ... education is unbelievably overpriced. If you do > not qualify for grants, ie. youre a white male, the return on > education investment right now is very very poor. People often forget > that the boomer generation often went to university without accruing > any debt whatsoever (that is if they had the drive to do it). Today, > going to college often means LIFETIME debt. > > As for your comments on hiring process, I knew someone who used to > say exactly the same thing. He had no degree and had reached the > ceiling of what a non-degreed person could achieve in the corporate > world. He claimed that his discrimination process was much more > effective than any university. What he was really doing was > surrounding himself with sycophants who knew how he liked his ego > stroked (= "smart people" in his language). Needless to say, the > proof is in the pudding... the customer is interested in what you can > accomplish. His department was constantly hanging by a thread and > everyone worked 80+ hours a week. The good people dropped out > quickly, and the undesirables were left ( whom he liked to think as > having "true grit"). > > Colleges formalize and accreditize knowledge, and that isn't > worthless. Its not worth anywhere near what you pay for it, however. > > -jmz > Quite true. Our educational caste system is useless, but nothing can change the fact it exists. Maybe whatever metamorphisis is currently occurring Internationally will change that? > > > while the world changes around (did you see Dark City?)....get grants > > and loans and go get a 4 year in 3 or something like UAT or Devry > > offers. > > > > WE LIVE IN AN EDUCATIONAL CASTE SYSTEM! You will be paid on the basis > > of your education and in corporate America, your lack of an education > > (without 25 years of experience) will get you a only a nice contract > > job or a technical support job.... > > > > No amount of certifications will change that! > > > > > > On 11/1/09, Jason Spatafore wrote: > >> Linux+ objectives are changing this year, so I don't think you could > >> "cram" for the exam quite yet since the newer books will probably be > >> heading out to the shelves soon. However, I always place stock in the > >> exam cram and exam prep books as those seem to help tremendously. (I > >> used exam cram + exam prep for my exam back in 2003.) > >> > >> Other good books that are not exam related would be anything from > >> O'reilly. > >> > >> For the "ask and answer" part...I would suggest online communities and > >> this discussion list. Go to a few install fests. Talk with the > >> people...most importantly, don't be afraid to sound "stupid"...we all > >> went through the "Oh crap, I forgot everything is a file" thought. :) > >> > >> If you feel really ambitious...pick up a book about C programming. Not C > >> ++...C programming. The Linux kernel, and many of the other commands are > >> programmed in C. This gives you an understanding of the Syntax. Then > >> there is some knowledge of Perl, Python, etc. You don't need the > >> advanced knowledge of a programmer, but you do need to get a good hold > >> on the syntatical differences. This can all be done online for free if > >> you find the penny pile starting to get a little reduced. > >> > >> The beauty of Linux...is that experience and community overrules > >> certification and profit. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 14:08 -0700, Sean Parsons wrote: > >>> Jason - Thank you for your response. > >>> > >>> I have spent the last 4-5 months doing the self paced learning, > checking > >>> out every book I can get but it still falls short of complete as it's > one > >>> way learning and I can learn faster 2-way, asking questions-getting > >>> answers. I have the LPI books on library loan to see if I could pass > the > >>> test, but seriously I know enough to break a server/workstation better > >>> than a newbie.. :) > >>> > >>> I want to learn more and need to find a place to get that 2-way > >>> communication so I can get passed this learning curve. I want to > replace > >>> 75% of my windows servers in the next 12 months, but want to be more > >>> confident in my abilities first. > >>> > >>> Can you recommend a source for linux+, I have centered on Ubuntu > for now > >>> as Mandriva and Debian offered me too many challenges, but may be fine > >>> after I get up to speed better. So I don't think the distro is a > >>> factor.... yet. > >>> > >>> I would love to be the guy to figure out how to play my MS games > in > >>> Linux, as it is now my only reason to keep Windows around in a virtual > >>> desktop..... Eventually I'd like to use the disks for target practice.. > :} > >>> > >>> Thanks again for your time. > >>> > >>> > >>> Sean Parsons > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: plug-discuss-bounces@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >>> [mailto:plug-discuss-bounces@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us] On Behalf Of > Jason > >>> Spatafore > >>> Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 1:59 PM > >>> To: Main PLUG discussion list > >>> Subject: Re: Linux certification > >>> > >>> Honestly, get Linux+ and play with Linux day in and day out. If you can > >>> learn one command, and 3 of that command's most useful options, every > >>> week, you will start to move forward fast. It's kind of like collecting > >>> weapons in a video game...the more you have, the more versatile you can > >>> be. (After 3 years, you'll know 150+ commands...and those 150 commands > >>> is a HUGE arsenal of weaponry that can make you extremely versatile.) > >>> > >>> Do not think you can "certify yourself into the industry". Linux is > >>> beyond an organized structure of system administration....it's a > thought > >>> process. You approach the problem with "what do I need to do?" then "is > >>> there a command that already does it?" > >>> > >>> Linux has a community that creates, explores, challenges, and expands. > >>> If you are going to be a part in that community, you must definitely > >>> explore...a LOT. > >>> > >>> That's my advice to anybody who may want to get into Linux. Understand > >>> that gaming will be your largest challenge...but you could become one > of > >>> the people who will change that drawback. > >>> > >>> All I have is Linux+...there's also LPI. I, myself, refuse to get a > >>> distribution specific certification. I want to learn Linux...not one > >>> company's translation on how it should be. Of course, you could be > >>> different. If so, Red Hat and Novell (SuSE) have certification tracks > as > >>> well, and they're not for the lighthearted. They're pretty tough, but > >>> very focused on *their* distributions. > >>> > >>> Remember, a Linux technician is beyond a guy who replaces a piece of > >>> hardware or a system administrator who manages systems. A person who is > >>> known in the Linux community is a combination of hardware technician, > >>> programmer, and engineer...with a very good understanding of how all > the > >>> pieces mix and match. > >>> > >>> On Sun, 2009-11-01 at 08:55 -0700, Sean Parsons wrote: > >>> > Hello all – > >>> > > >>> > I’m new to the group, but have been working in IT fields for longer > >>> > than I want to admit, but I see the error of my ways and I want to > >>> > repent and be saved….. I’m considering getting Linux certification. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > I am interested in speaking with anyone who has gotten certified, or > >>> > can give me any details about local cert classes or testing. > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Thanks > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > Doorman352 > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > --------------------------------------------------- > >>> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >>> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >>> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >>> > >>> --------------------------------------------------- > >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >>> > >>> --------------------------------------------------- > >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > > -- > > Skype: (623)239-3392 > > AT&T: (503)754-4452 > > www.obnosis.com > > --------------------------------------------------- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- Skype: (623)239-3392 AT&T: (503)754-4452 www.obnosis.com