OK, I have a meeting tonight @ 7 pm: ===================== AZ State Representatives who serve on the Joint Legislative Audit Committee and staff will give a presentation for EGC members on the State budget proposal, how we got there, and where we are headed. ==================== What would you like me to ask? Or say? lyle At 02:58 PM 8/2/2009, you wrote: >On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 2:51 PM, keith smith wrote: > > > > > > I think anytime government gets involved in anything it is > bad. If the government is going to be in charge of giving grants > to business development groups only the friends of government will > get the grants. > > the friends of govt are getting the grants right now. believe me, >I've been at the State Senate. It's a zoo. We're about to make the >biggest financial decision AZ has made in decades. -jmz > > > > > > > We agree on one thing. Accurate reporting is needed. That is > what is missing. > > > > > > ------------------------ > > Keith Smith > > > > > > --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > > >> From: Joshua Zeidner > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > >> Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 2:41 PM > >> On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 2:21 PM, keith > >> smith > >> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > With the exception of labor law violations what you > >> have outlined has to do with business practices. > >> > > >> > How can government improve these problems? > >> > >> I think that the technology development people need > >> clear > >> representation in state govt. You certainly have this > >> in CA, and the > >> political support is funneled through professional > >> orgs. As was > >> pointed out the professional orgs are somewhat lacking > >> here- perhaps > >> this warrants a closer look. Perhaps we need to take > >> a look at who it > >> is that runs them. In my view the only way to make a > >> durable org is > >> direct support by state or city govt. Economic > >> development in AZ is > >> typically modeled as low cost industrial investment + cheap > >> labor = > >> $$$$! Im not suggesting doing away with it, but it > >> has expanded > >> enough to antagonize other kinds of development. I > >> dont think cheap > >> labor should come at the cost of University. This is > >> the 21st > >> century- cast iron widgets are becoming cheaper and > >> cheaper. > >> > >> Again just to clarify, I have nothing against > >> Gangplank. But we > >> have to be accurate when we talk about it. It's not > >> the Kleiner > >> Perkins of Arizona. If we allow that perception to > >> persist, AZ will > >> gain a reputation as a fraud. Secondly I would > >> appreciate it if some > >> of the protagonists of these groups were a bit clearer > >> about their > >> identity. Some of these groups conjure up images of > >> those cheapo > >> chinese buffets that change their names every few months. > >> > >> Keith I dont have a business plan... but we need to > >> start by > >> accurately reporting on the state of things. Then we > >> can make the > >> right decisions. > >> > >> -jmz > >> > >> > > >> > ------------------------ > >> > Keith Smith > >> > > >> > > >> > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Michael Butash > >> wrote: > >> > > >> >> From: Michael Butash > >> >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in > >> PHX > >> >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > >> >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:31 PM > >> >> Well, largely I agree with Joshua's > >> >> assessment, sounds like his > >> >> experience is much like mine... > >> >> > >> >> I moved to the Bay area in 99, worked tech there > >> for 2 > >> >> years, moved back > >> >> when things imploded in 01. Since being back > >> versed > >> >> with tech skill and > >> >> corporate politics, I've only ever been able to > >> describe > >> >> most business > >> >> in Arizona as bass-ackward and/or hot-air > >> propelled. > >> >> Largely I note > >> >> Arizona seems to encourage abuse of fair labor > >> standards > >> >> act for > >> >> salaried employees, resulting in a lot of > >> "sweatshop IT" > >> >> mentality in > >> >> corporations here. Funny I heard mentioned > >> godaddy > >> >> and 2wire, as they > >> >> tend to be some of the biggest offenders of > >> running said > >> >> sweat shops. > >> >> Give your buddy 6 months at the Daddy to acclimate > >> to them > >> >> and ask what > >> >> he thinks. :) > >> >> > >> >> When I did move back to AZ, I'd joined some > >> professional > >> >> "networking" > >> >> groups like AZIPA that led to not much more than > >> pedantic > >> >> bickering and > >> >> posturing, not much at all helpful for business > >> or > >> >> technology > >> >> opportunities. Ultimately I saw it splinter, > >> >> fracture, and a lot of > >> >> people simply lose interest because of it, > >> including > >> >> myself. From that > >> >> I found being an island unto yourself isn't always > >> a bad > >> >> thing, simply > >> >> networking with people I met through work. Only > >> >> recently have I > >> >> somewhat opened up to professional networking > >> though > >> >> LinkedIn and user > >> >> groups like this one, but really just to keep > >> touch with > >> >> associates and > >> >> clients of mine. I'm still gun shy on the > >> rest... > >> >> > >> >> Since being back in AZ, I've worked for a lot of > >> IT shops > >> >> and been > >> >> exposed to a lot of people shifting between jobs, > >> finding > >> >> that more or > >> >> less most corporate politics surrounding IT are > >> the same, > >> >> and not > >> >> typically good. I worked 3 years at GoDaddy > >> prior and > >> >> through massive > >> >> growth, while one of my best work experiences > >> (building > >> >> cool/expensive > >> >> stuff), it was also one of the worst (meat > >> grinder > >> >> stressful workplace, > >> >> implosive politics). GD and frankly a lot of > >> >> companies I've been > >> >> exposed to are more alike than not, typically > >> because of > >> >> clueless upper > >> >> management and general lack of ethics, but somehow > >> forge > >> >> along despite > >> >> themselves. Closest analogy I can equated it to > >> >> universally is "the > >> >> blind leading the blind", where self-serving > >> politics, > >> >> combined with > >> >> poor technological leadership, and now volatile > >> economics > >> >> eventually > >> >> dictate perspective reasoning of how things > >> work. Bad > >> >> things tend to > >> >> result, and often... > >> >> > >> >> The difference between working in the Bay Area and > >> in > >> >> Arizona is stark. > >> >> Generally I found a lot better talent there, with > >> a > >> >> stronger likeliness > >> >> to embrace technology, and be passionate about > >> their > >> >> work. Here there's > >> >> just a lot of people graduating DeVry, UoP, WIU, > >> and other > >> >> "schools" > >> >> cranking out mediocre certified/degreed > >> cannon-fodder for > >> >> the local IT > >> >> shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream job. > >> It's > >> >> almost scary > >> >> walking into new customer businesses consulting > >> anymore, > >> >> pretty safe to > >> >> assume someone knows nothing than anything about > >> the tech > >> >> they support. > >> >> While I did have this too in the Bay Area, the > >> clueless > >> >> admin syndrome > >> >> is a heck of a lot more prevalent here. Work > >> ethics > >> >> tend to be crappier > >> >> too. I dunno, something in the water perhaps... > >> >> > >> >> Look around at the sheer number of call centers > >> for > >> >> businesses out of > >> >> state we have here, and that should tell you > >> >> something. A lot of > >> >> low-pay, mediocre jobs, and a career path to > >> become a > >> >> cattle herder of > >> >> these call centers, maybe even move into middle > >> management > >> >> if you're > >> >> lucky. Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wire, CableOne, > >> Cox, > >> >> ETelecare, etc > >> >> simply rotate people in and out like underwear, > >> but they're > >> >> the armpits > >> >> that fund a lot of the IT business around town as > >> well, as > >> >> someone's got > >> >> to support all the infrastructure to take those > >> >> calls. Godaddy's call > >> >> centers are slightly different because they > >> actually MAKE > >> >> them money, so > >> >> they tend to commission merit pay and lavish gifts > >> readily > >> >> upon them to > >> >> keep everyone happy, but it's still at the root > >> just > >> >> another sweatshop > >> >> call center. Other call centers are much less > >> >> forgiving... > >> >> > >> >> Supporting IT shops around call centers tends to > >> be a > >> >> double-edged > >> >> sword, especially when the call center slave > >> mentality > >> >> pervades into the > >> >> how companies deal with or even drive IT folk. > >> Even > >> >> non-call-centers > >> >> seem to act this way locally more commonly than > >> not, just > >> >> because they > >> >> can, and it's the atmosphere people are becoming > >> acclimated > >> >> to. As > >> >> people migrate jobs, I think ultimately this > >> pervasive > >> >> mentality results > >> >> in excessive overwork and general dissatisfaction, > >> causing > >> >> a > >> >> trickle-down effect into other work places. > >> >> > >> >> These disinterested/jaded/overworked/underpaid > >> workers now > >> >> head out into > >> >> other IT shops to maintain infrastructure over > >> their head > >> >> and > >> >> undermanned, meaning things degrade eventually > >> even if once > >> >> deployed > >> >> properly. I'm not at all certain if this is just > >> a > >> >> local thing, or the > >> >> new national standard at work, but it seems much > >> more > >> >> pervasive here > >> >> than certain other localities I work with. > >> >> Professional ethics are hard > >> >> to find these days in general with hard times > >> indeed. > >> >> Anyone else of > >> >> hiring capacity notice try hiring *good* people > >> these > >> >> days? Pretty > >> >> difficult if you ask me. > >> >> > >> >> Overall, working in the tech field here for the > >> past 8 > >> >> years in a more > >> >> senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I want to > >> remain in AZ > >> >> long-term. > >> >> As I get older, my flame to set upon the world > >> diminishes, > >> >> I'll probably > >> >> just wander until I feel comfortable for a bit. > >> I > >> >> love AZ, but I'm > >> >> fairly disparaged by the business opportunities > >> here after > >> >> all these > >> >> years... > >> >> > >> >> So enough hot-air of my own, take it as you will, > >> but > >> >> that's my take on > >> >> things. Feel free to disagree. :) > >> >> > >> >> Good discussion indeed, interesting to hear > >> other's > >> >> opinions on the > >> >> matter. > >> >> > >> >> -mb > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua Zeidner > >> wrote: > >> >> > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith > >> smith > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > I think what is really missing from this > >> equation > >> >> is mentoring and training. > >> >> > > >> >> > what I would like to see is some real > >> >> support from AZ government to > >> >> > help make tech companies feel welcome here. > >> This > >> >> means: > >> >> > > >> >> > 1) making the valley a good place not > >> >> only to build a company but to > >> >> > build a *career*. this means buy in from > >> both > >> >> sides of the equation. > >> >> > I would like to see a bit more address at > >> lower > >> >> capital levels, but > >> >> > that may prove to be difficult. It seems > >> that > >> >> most existing concepts > >> >> > are kind of stuck in the industrial model, > >> where you > >> >> build a factory > >> >> > in a place with low taxes and hire low wage > >> workers, > >> >> but technology > >> >> > requires high wage workers who demand a good > >> thriving > >> >> job market. The > >> >> > needs are quite different. The biggest > >> issue > >> >> with starting a company > >> >> > out here is finding people. Where are all > >> the > >> >> people? in CA. > >> >> > because it has a good job market. If we > >> can > >> >> outsource to India, we > >> >> > sure as hell can outsource to Arizona. > >> >> > > >> >> > 2) setting up low cost legal > >> >> structure and as you say mentoring to > >> >> > really help stimulate technology > >> development. > >> >> We've seen (at least > >> >> > nominal) efforts in the past. Why did they > >> >> fail? This means real and > >> >> > adequate assistance in bringing concepts to > >> production > >> >> and market. A > >> >> > small investment in this area will yield > >> returns in > >> >> tax base and > >> >> > property value by a factor of hundreds. > >> Arizona > >> >> has the potential to > >> >> > pick up a lot of this commercial activity > >> because > >> >> California is > >> >> > currently set to become a tax strapped > >> nightmare state > >> >> to build your > >> >> > business. If AZ fails to see the > >> opportunity > >> >> here, we will lose out > >> >> > big time. Currently the budget proceedings > >> are > >> >> still in gridlock. > >> >> > > >> >> > the mayor of Phoenix seems to have > >> >> the right idea, he was suggesting > >> >> > recently a green technology center near Phx > >> >> center. I think thats the > >> >> > direction AZ needs to go. -jmz > >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > I like the idea that folks are getting > >> together > >> >> to network. This is a really cool idea. Even > >> for > >> >> non-technical stuff like finding out how people > >> deal with > >> >> customers, contracting, book-keeping, ETC. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > ------------------------ > >> >> > > Keith Smith > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner > >> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> From: Joshua Zeidner > >> >> > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur > >> Stuff to > >> >> do in PHX > >> >> > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > >> > >> >> > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 > >> PM > >> >> > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM, > >> >> > >> Alan Dayley > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> > Joshua, > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > I put all your replies together > >> in one > >> >> long document > >> >> > >> and reread them. > >> >> > >> > I am still confused a bit. > >> >> Enlightenment via email > >> >> > >> rarely occurs. > >> >> > >> > However, I really want to > >> understand > >> >> your position in > >> >> > >> this discussion. > >> >> > >> > Let me summarize what I > >> understand > >> >> from your > >> >> > >> replies. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of > >> your > >> >> comments]--- > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - There is a small group or > >> groups of > >> >> people who keep > >> >> > >> spinning off > >> >> > >> > communities using tired > >> marketing > >> >> techniques. This > >> >> > >> results in blogs > >> >> > >> > but not true communities. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - Some of these people cannot > >> deal with > >> >> existing > >> >> > >> structure and the > >> >> > >> > efforts of the past. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - These weak attempts do not > >> articulate > >> >> goals or > >> >> > >> purpose well, if at all. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - We must honestly look at > >> criticism to > >> >> learn and > >> >> > >> improve. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - These weak people need to > >> address the > >> >> efforts of the > >> >> > >> past and > >> >> > >> > provide suggestions on how they > >> can be > >> >> improved upon. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - Getting political support > >> will provide > >> >> legitimacy to > >> >> > >> their efforts. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - Phoenix will attract > >> technology > >> >> businesses because > >> >> > >> of the relative > >> >> > >> > low cost and this will help > >> improve > >> >> things. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - You have first hand > >> experiences of > >> >> weak, marketing > >> >> > >> fronted, > >> >> > >> > community building efforts. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have > >> grand ideas > >> >> but get > >> >> > >> nowhere with them > >> >> > >> > because they are not real > >> businesses. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - People at a co-working > >> location or > >> >> coffee shop will > >> >> > >> not help you > >> >> > >> > with your business unless you > >> pay them. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - Most people at co-working > >> started > >> >> their one person > >> >> > >> business after > >> >> > >> > being laid-off and are not > >> serious about > >> >> it. They > >> >> > >> are really just > >> >> > >> > looking for the next full time > >> >> gig. This will get in > >> >> > >> your way if you > >> >> > >> > have real business work to do. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - We must look truthfully at > >> this issue > >> >> if we are to > >> >> > >> make progress. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > - There are no serious > >> incubators and > >> >> entrepreneurial > >> >> > >> meetups in > >> >> > >> > Phoenix. No announcements on > >> VC > >> >> funding of companies > >> >> > >> so it's not > >> >> > >> > really entrepreneurial growth. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of > >> your > >> >> comments]--- > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > I see validity in every one of > >> these > >> >> comments. I > >> >> > >> also think many of > >> >> > >> > them can be balanced by the > >> other point > >> >> of view. I > >> >> > >> still have > >> >> > >> > questions, if I may ask, before > >> I state > >> >> too much of my > >> >> > >> own thinking. > >> >> > >> > I want to learn more about > >> your > >> >> thinking. > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 1. What does "deal with > >> existing > >> >> structure" mean? > >> >> > >> This confuses me, > >> >> > >> > not know what structure you are > >> talking > >> >> about. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> Many user groups have been > >> >> formed and continue to > >> >> > >> exist... how is > >> >> > >> different? other > >> than > >> >> its led by > >> >> > >> person Y? I mean dealing > >> >> > >> with some of these groups I feel > >> like Im back > >> >> to age 8 > >> >> > >> trying to gain > >> >> > >> admittance into the neighborhood > >> >> treehouse. Perhaps I > >> >> > >> should spend > >> >> > >> more time drinking beer with these > >> >> people? Seeing the > >> >> > >> same small > >> >> > >> group churning out 'communities' is > >> at first > >> >> funny, then > >> >> > >> annoying. I > >> >> > >> just see a real lack of serious > >> intent, and > >> >> unless that is > >> >> > >> noted > >> >> > >> publicly, it makes all of us look > >> bad. > >> >> I really dont > >> >> > >> think Im being > >> >> > >> destructive or malicious here, Im > >> pointing > >> >> out some valid > >> >> > >> observations. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 2. To what efforts of the past > >> are you > >> >> referring? I > >> >> > >> want to > >> >> > >> > understand the size and nature > >> of > >> >> efforts to creating > >> >> > >> a community that > >> >> > >> > you feel were legitimate but > >> perhaps did > >> >> not work as > >> >> > >> planned. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> I remember when I first came > >> >> to AZ that there was an > >> >> > >> tech > >> >> > >> incubator... what happened to it? > >> >> Which > >> >> > >> political agents currently > >> >> > >> support technology development in > >> the > >> >> valley? what do > >> >> > >> they think > >> >> > >> about your org? these things are > >> pretty > >> >> basic... > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 3. What political support is > >> >> needed? You mean > >> >> > >> government funding of > >> >> > >> > events or startups or just > >> verbal > >> >> support or what? > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> I wouldn't expect funding, > >> >> but it would be good to > >> >> > >> see some > >> >> > >> political buy in. Lack of just > >> supports > >> >> my opinions, > >> >> > >> that its really > >> >> > >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor > >> >> organization. > >> >> > >> Without any good > >> >> > >> signposts, all this will produce are > >> people > >> >> who get jaded > >> >> > >> and > >> >> > >> disaffected with regards to this > >> >> location. If you had > >> >> > >> something > >> >> > >> together I doubt that a good > >> politician would > >> >> turn you > >> >> > >> down. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem > >> for > >> >> someone who is > >> >> > >> laid-off to have > >> >> > >> > grand ideas, talk about them > >> and they > >> >> never come to > >> >> > >> be? > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> Its not. As I said, I > >> >> don't find any of these > >> >> > >> things highly > >> >> > >> offensive- but like you I am free to > >> express > >> >> myself. > >> >> > >> Sorry if its not > >> >> > >> filled with abundant exaltations. > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that > >> people > >> >> might help each > >> >> > >> other in business > >> >> > >> > efforts? Isn't strengthening > >> and > >> >> creating such a > >> >> > >> culture a good idea > >> >> > >> > or should such a goal not be > >> pursued > >> >> because it is not > >> >> > >> practically > >> >> > >> > possible? > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> sure. good thread > >> >> btw. -jmz > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > Alan > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 > >> PM, Joshua > >> >> Zeidner > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> another great one: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> "OK, my question stands. > >> Where are > >> >> the incubators, > >> >> > >> the "bootstrap" > >> >> > >> >> seminars, the serious > >> >> entrepreneurial meetups in > >> >> > >> Phoenix??? (crickets > >> >> > >> >> chirping). Phoenix just > >> ain't > >> >> happening as a > >> >> > >> serious place where > >> >> > >> >> serious people are doing > >> serious > >> >> things. No one > >> >> > >> wants it badly enough > >> >> > >> >> here. This paper should be > >> having at > >> >> least one > >> >> > >> article a week on a new > >> >> > >> >> startup and the VC firm who > >> funded > >> >> it. > >> >> > >> Helloooo????? is anybody out > >> >> > >> >> there...." > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> a better way to phrase > >> this: we need > >> >> to stop > >> >> > >> pretending these > >> >> > >> >> whimsical efforts churned > >> out by > >> >> local > >> >> > >> self-employed marketing experts > >> >> > >> >> are sufficient. They are > >> >> not. We should be > >> >> > >> asking the hard > >> >> > >> >> questions, not playing > >> games. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> -jmz > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at > >> 4:04 PM, > >> >> Joshua > >> >> > >> Zeidner > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>> another point, > >> honestly > >> >> reading through some > >> >> > >> of the criticisms on > >> >> > >> >>> azcentral and being of > >> the cafe > >> >> dwelling creed > >> >> > >> myself, I'd have to say > >> >> > >> >>> that many of those > >> points are > >> >> accurate. I've > >> >> > >> heard lots of > >> >> > >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with > >> big ideas > >> >> around here who > >> >> > >> never get anywhere with > >> >> > >> >>> them. Sorry, but a > >> word > >> >> press template > >> >> > >> doesn't make you an > >> >> > >> >>> entrepreneur. > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> "These are the same > >> people > >> >> you see at > >> >> > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any > >> >> > >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, > >> they are > >> >> not > >> >> > >> entrepreneurs they are attention > >> >> > >> >>> (inappropriate term)." > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> "Many of the > >> Co-Worker > >> >> location founders > >> >> > >> tout other people to > >> >> > >> >>> collaborate with and > >> who can > >> >> "compensate for > >> >> > >> your deficiencies". Do > >> >> > >> >>> you really believe > >> someone that > >> >> you are not > >> >> > >> paying as an employee is > >> >> > >> >>> going to somehow > >> compensate for > >> >> your > >> >> > >> deficiencies and make your > >> >> > >> >>> business better? That > >> kind of > >> >> help doesn't > >> >> > >> come without a price." > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> oh so true... > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> "You are more likely > >> to > >> >> get a bunch of > >> >> > >> people chatting to you over > >> >> > >> >>> your "work" so you wont > >> be > >> >> concentrating as > >> >> > >> you should to focus on > >> >> > >> >>> your business. Most of > >> these > >> >> people started > >> >> > >> businesses after being > >> >> > >> >>> laid off. They are > >> searching for > >> >> a new job and > >> >> > >> they aren't really > >> >> > >> >>> serious about their > >> "businesses" > >> >> so how do you > >> >> > >> expect them to give you > >> >> > >> >>> valuable, serious > >> advice. Are > >> >> these the kind > >> >> > >> of people you need to > >> >> > >> >>> compensate for your > >> >> deficiencies? A bunch of > >> >> > >> people half-as running > >> >> > >> >>> their "business" while > >> searching > >> >> for a real > >> >> > >> job and bothering you with > >> >> > >> >>> their expertise that > >> got them > >> >> laid off in the > >> >> > >> first place." > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> oh so so true... > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> I would be willing to > >> bet > >> >> the commenter > >> >> > >> above is an tried and true > >> >> > >> >>> successful > >> entrepreneur. > >> >> Perhaps the reason > >> >> > >> I am so skeptical is > >> >> > >> >>> because I know these > >> kind of > >> >> people so well. > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> sorry I really wish > >> I > >> >> could be more > >> >> > >> supportive... but : truth is > >> >> > >> >>> the foundation of > >> progress. > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> -jmz > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at > >> 3:28 PM, > >> >> Joshua > >> >> > >> Zeidner > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>> Alan, > >> >> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>>> Wish I had > >> time > >> >> to respond to all > >> >> > >> these points right now, not sure > >> >> > >> >>>> you read me the way > >> I would > >> >> prefer > >> >> > >> however. Its not so grave a > >> >> > >> >>>> warning, just > >> getting the > >> >> word out on my > >> >> > >> first hand experiences. Im > >> >> > >> >>>> just one of many- > >> but > >> >> hopefully an > >> >> > >> impartial observer and someone > >> >> > >> >>>> genuinely concerned > >> for AZ. > >> >> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>>> all the best, > >> jmz > >> >> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, > >> 2009 at 3:12 > >> >> PM, Alan > >> >> > >> Dayley > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>>> Josh, > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> I feel > >> warned. And > >> >> I don't > >> >> > >> understand the reason for such a > >> strong > >> >> warning. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> There are > >> people in > >> >> every industry, > >> >> > >> government or community who wish > >> >> > >> >>>>> to fleece > >> their > >> >> "community" for their > >> >> > >> own profit instead of mutual > >> >> > >> >>>>> benefit. The > >> trick > >> >> is to find the > >> >> > >> positive people and ignore the > >> >> > >> >>>>> rest. Apply > >> the > >> >> same filter with > >> >> > >> every event, group or blogger in > >> the > >> >> > >> >>>>> lists and links > >> I > >> >> provided. I don't > >> >> > >> expect bloggers or techies to be > >> >> > >> >>>>> any different, > >> as if > >> >> being techie > >> >> > >> makes one a saint. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> Some of those > >> bloggers > >> >> are purely > >> >> > >> commercial or completely neglected, > >> >> > >> >>>>> I'm sure. > >> Some of > >> >> the groups or > >> >> > >> events or sites listed are lousy, > >> >> > >> >>>>> boring or poor > >> marketing > >> >> excuses to > >> >> > >> sell something. Some are not out > >> >> > >> >>>>> to create > >> community but > >> >> to build a > >> >> > >> "kingdom" for their own benefit. > >> >> > >> >>>>> They are the > >> duds. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> Let's look at a > >> few > >> >> positives: > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - Read the > >> Gangplank > >> >> Manifesto on > >> >> > >> their home page at > >> >> > >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com. That looks like > >> >> > >> a great articulation of their > >> >> > >> >>>>> goals and > >> purpose. > >> >> Ones I strongly > >> >> > >> support! > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- Read how > >> the > >> >> manifesto came to be > >> >> > >> on Derek's blog at > >> >> > >> >>>>> > http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/ > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - Gangplank has > >> hosted > >> >> or is hosting: > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a > >> day long > >> >> conference on > >> >> > >> developing for phones like > >> >> > >> >>>>> iPhone or > >> Android > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- Gangplank > >> Jr. - a 2-3 > >> >> hour Saturday > >> >> > >> event for kids 5-15 to learn > >> >> > >> >>>>> programming > >> concepts > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- Wordpress > >> training > >> >> classes for > >> >> > >> minimal cost or no-cost for > >> non-profit orgs > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- Laid Off > >> Camp - a day > >> >> long > >> >> > >> conference on job searching and > >> >> entreprenuership > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- Barcamp > >> Pheonix - a > >> >> day long > >> >> > >> conference on software development > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - > >> Watch > >> >> ted.com videos > >> >> > >> and discuss them > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix > >> - a night > >> >> of open mic > >> >> > >> music and entertainment > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on > June 13th and > >> >> > >> nearly > >> >> > >> >>>>> filled DeVry's > >> Phoenix > >> >> campus with > >> >> > >> developers talking about code or > >> >> > >> >>>>> making code. > >> Free > >> >> lunch of pizza and > >> >> > >> sub sandwiches was provided too. > >> >> > >> >>>>> Put together > >> by > >> >> volunteers. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - If you're > >> into > >> >> Microsoft based > >> >> > >> development tech, the people who > >> >> > >> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual > all-day event at > >> >> > >> >>>>> venues like the > >> Orphium > >> >> Theater and at > >> >> > >> no cost to attendees. Fine, > >> >> > >> >>>>> it's marketing > >> for MS > >> >> but it's put on > >> >> > >> by volunteers here in the valley > >> >> > >> >>>>> and a great way > >> for > >> >> people to learn > >> >> > >> about things that improve their > >> >> > >> >>>>> career skills. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx) > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The local > >> Ruby On > >> >> Rails group has > >> >> > >> monthly meetings with around 30 > >> >> > >> >>>>> regularly in > >> >> attendance. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The Java > >> group is also > >> >> well attended > >> >> > >> every month. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in > November, put on > >> >> > >> by > >> >> > >> >>>>> voluteers at no > >> cost > >> >> (donation > >> >> > >> requested) to attendees. Had about > >> 350 > >> >> > >> >>>>> people attend > >> last year > >> >> (if I recall) > >> >> > >> for two days of conference. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in > >> >> > >> November > >> >> > >> >>>>> for the forth > >> >> year. This one costs > >> >> > >> $100+ but should be as well > >> >> > >> >>>>> attended as > >> last year > >> >> with 200+ > >> >> > >> people. Funded and organized in > >> part > >> >> > >> >>>>> by a local > >> venture > >> >> capital group. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was > held a year ago > >> >> with > >> >> > >> a > >> >> > >> >>>>> little over 100 > >> in > >> >> attendance and has > >> >> > >> grown to fill the 600 seat > >> >> > >> >>>>> Theather at > >> Tempe Center > >> >> for the Arts > >> >> > >> back in June. The connections > >> >> > >> >>>>> made there live > >> well > >> >> past the event. > >> >> > >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city > >> council > >> >> member and the > >> >> > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last > >> >> > >> >>>>> time, though he > >> was a > >> >> bit silly trying > >> >> > >> to be Tempe exclusive. That > >> >> > >> >>>>> seems to be at > >> least > >> >> verbal political > >> >> > >> support. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> - The second > >> ABLEConf on > >> >> FS/OSS is > >> >> > >> being planned for October and > >> >> > >> >>>>> should be > >> better than > >> >> last year. (Go > >> >> > >> Hans and team!) > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> I'm not going > >> to go on, > >> >> though I could > >> >> > >> point out several purely social > >> >> > >> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's > east and west > >> >> > >> valley > >> >> > >> >>>>> analogs, East > >> Valley > >> >> Thursday Morning > >> >> > >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch, > >> >> > >> >>>>> South Valley > >> Geek Meet > >> >> and Eat and > >> >> > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch > >> >> > >> >>>>> presentations > >> every > >> >> Wednesday. > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> Now, having > >> said all of > >> >> that "giddy > >> >> > >> blind optimism," I'd like to > >> >> > >> >>>>> understand how > >> the above > >> >> does not > >> >> > >> address the efforts of the past or > >> >> > >> >>>>> provide > >> improvement over > >> >> past efforts. > >> >> > >> What are the real needs of the > >> >> > >> >>>>> community, if > >> not some > >> >> of the above? > >> >> > >> What would you suggest? How can > >> >> > >> >>>>> PLUG be a part > >> of it? > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> Alan > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, > >> 2009 at > >> >> 1:34 PM, > >> >> > >> Joshua Zeidner > >> >> > >> wrote: > >> >> > >> >>>>>> Alan, > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>>> while > >> I > >> >> appreciate your post, > >> >> > >> and anyone who is making a sincere > >> >> > >> >>>>>> effort to > >> build > >> >> community in > >> >> > >> Phoenix... be warned. There are > >> some > >> >> > >> >>>>>> small > >> groups who > >> >> periodically > >> >> > >> spawn off new 'communities' every > >> month > >> >> > >> >>>>>> or so. > >> Look > >> >> closely and you see > >> >> > >> the same few people with reused > >> >> > >> >>>>>> marketing > >> >> recipes. Lots of blog > >> >> > >> and not too much community I'm > >> >> > >> >>>>>> afraid. > >> Their > >> >> efforts amount to > >> >> > >> some simple branding and putting up > >> a > >> >> > >> >>>>>> blog. > >> While > >> >> these things are not > >> >> > >> really particularily offensive to > >> >> > >> >>>>>> me, they do > >> somewhat > >> >> detract from > >> >> > >> interest in the real needs of the > >> >> > >> >>>>>> community > >> >> here. Some of these > >> >> > >> people are just outright idiotic > >> and > >> >> > >> >>>>>> cannot deal > >> with > >> >> existing > >> >> > >> structure and refuse to accept the > >> history > >> >> > >> >>>>>> of efforts > >> in the > >> >> past. They > >> >> > >> lack any articulation of their goals > >> and > >> >> > >> >>>>>> purpose. > >> Often > >> >> times they have > >> >> > >> trouble organizing even small > >> groups > >> >> > >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3. > >> >> Dont forget we've had > >> >> > >> a tech incubator here. Lets not > >> >> > >> >>>>>> smack down > >> sincere > >> >> criticism in > >> >> > >> favor of giddy blind optimism, > >> >> > >> >>>>>> remember > >> you can't > >> >> improve without > >> >> > >> criticism. I would take these > >> >> > >> >>>>>> people much > >> more > >> >> seriously if they > >> >> > >> addressed the efforts of the past > >> >> > >> >>>>>> and > >> perhaps > >> >> suggested how they are > >> >> > >> going to improve on them, or > >> >> > >> >>>>>> perhaps > >> indicate > >> >> what has changed > >> >> > >> that will make them a success. > >> >> > >> >>>>>> Maybe > >> seeking real > >> >> political > >> >> > >> support would gain some legitimacy. > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>>> on > >> the > >> >> positive side, I think > >> >> > >> Phoenix will attract a lot of > >> >> > >> >>>>>> technology > >> business > >> >> due to its > >> >> > >> relative low cost and no doubt you > >> will > >> >> > >> >>>>>> start to > >> see > >> >> community > >> >> > >> infrastructure grow. We are seeing > >> some > >> >> real > >> >> > >> >>>>>> urban > >> development > >> >> happening in Phx > >> >> > >> metro which has me very excited. > >> I > >> >> > >> >>>>>> think when > >> the > >> >> macroeconomic > >> >> > >> problems are sorted out we will see > >> >> > >> >>>>>> downtown > >> Phx > >> >> bloom. Im hoping > >> >> > >> that the average Arizonan gets > >> involved > >> >> > >> >>>>>> in the > >> political > >> >> process and make > >> >> > >> sure that the corruption stays out > >> >> > >> >>>>>> of city and > >> state > >> >> politics. > >> >> > >> Coming from NY, Im recognizing a > >> lot > >> >> of > >> >> > >> >>>>>> positive > >> development > >> >> trends in Phx > >> >> > >> metro. > >> >> > >> >>>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>>>> -jmz > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss > >> mailing > >> >> list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> > >> >>>>> To subscribe, > >> >> unsubscribe, or to > >> >> > >> change your mail settings: > >> >> > >> >>>>> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > >> >>>>> > >> >> > >> >>>> > >> >> > >> >>> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - > >> PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> > >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, > >> or to > >> >> change your mail > >> >> > >> settings: > >> >> > >> >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - > PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> > >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or > >> to change > >> >> your mail > >> >> > >> settings: > >> >> > >> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > >> > > >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to > >> change your > >> >> mail > >> >> > >> settings: > >> >> > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > >> > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change > >> your mail > >> >> settings: > >> >> > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your > >> mail > >> >> settings: > >> >> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > >> >> settings: > >> >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > >> settings: > >> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > >> settings: > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > >--------------------------------------------------- >PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us >To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss