Maybe it's time to try something new! - want to learn about open telephony systems? I hear you though... I'm totally dissatisfied about the tech infrastructure in the east valley. I have three options for internet and they're all horrible. On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 10:31 PM, Michael Butash wrote: > Well, largely I agree with Joshua's assessment, sounds like his > experience is much like mine... > > I moved to the Bay area in 99, worked tech there for 2 years, moved back > when things imploded in 01. Since being back versed with tech skill and > corporate politics, I've only ever been able to describe most business > in Arizona as bass-ackward and/or hot-air propelled. Largely I note > Arizona seems to encourage abuse of fair labor standards act for > salaried employees, resulting in a lot of "sweatshop IT" mentality in > corporations here. Funny I heard mentioned godaddy and 2wire, as they > tend to be some of the biggest offenders of running said sweat shops. > Give your buddy 6 months at the Daddy to acclimate to them and ask what > he thinks. :) > > When I did move back to AZ, I'd joined some professional "networking" > groups like AZIPA that led to not much more than pedantic bickering and > posturing, not much at all helpful for business or technology > opportunities. Ultimately I saw it splinter, fracture, and a lot of > people simply lose interest because of it, including myself. From that > I found being an island unto yourself isn't always a bad thing, simply > networking with people I met through work. Only recently have I > somewhat opened up to professional networking though LinkedIn and user > groups like this one, but really just to keep touch with associates and > clients of mine. I'm still gun shy on the rest... > > Since being back in AZ, I've worked for a lot of IT shops and been > exposed to a lot of people shifting between jobs, finding that more or > less most corporate politics surrounding IT are the same, and not > typically good. I worked 3 years at GoDaddy prior and through massive > growth, while one of my best work experiences (building cool/expensive > stuff), it was also one of the worst (meat grinder stressful workplace, > implosive politics). GD and frankly a lot of companies I've been > exposed to are more alike than not, typically because of clueless upper > management and general lack of ethics, but somehow forge along despite > themselves. Closest analogy I can equated it to universally is "the > blind leading the blind", where self-serving politics, combined with > poor technological leadership, and now volatile economics eventually > dictate perspective reasoning of how things work. Bad things tend to > result, and often... > > The difference between working in the Bay Area and in Arizona is stark. > Generally I found a lot better talent there, with a stronger likeliness > to embrace technology, and be passionate about their work. Here there's > just a lot of people graduating DeVry, UoP, WIU, and other "schools" > cranking out mediocre certified/degreed cannon-fodder for the local IT > shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream job. It's almost scary > walking into new customer businesses consulting anymore, pretty safe to > assume someone knows nothing than anything about the tech they support. > While I did have this too in the Bay Area, the clueless admin syndrome > is a heck of a lot more prevalent here. Work ethics tend to be crappier > too. I dunno, something in the water perhaps... > > Look around at the sheer number of call centers for businesses out of > state we have here, and that should tell you something. A lot of > low-pay, mediocre jobs, and a career path to become a cattle herder of > these call centers, maybe even move into middle management if you're > lucky. Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wire, CableOne, Cox, ETelecare, etc > simply rotate people in and out like underwear, but they're the armpits > that fund a lot of the IT business around town as well, as someone's got > to support all the infrastructure to take those calls. Godaddy's call > centers are slightly different because they actually MAKE them money, so > they tend to commission merit pay and lavish gifts readily upon them to > keep everyone happy, but it's still at the root just another sweatshop > call center. Other call centers are much less forgiving... > > Supporting IT shops around call centers tends to be a double-edged > sword, especially when the call center slave mentality pervades into the > how companies deal with or even drive IT folk. Even non-call-centers > seem to act this way locally more commonly than not, just because they > can, and it's the atmosphere people are becoming acclimated to. As > people migrate jobs, I think ultimately this pervasive mentality results > in excessive overwork and general dissatisfaction, causing a > trickle-down effect into other work places. > > These disinterested/jaded/overworked/underpaid workers now head out into > other IT shops to maintain infrastructure over their head and > undermanned, meaning things degrade eventually even if once deployed > properly. I'm not at all certain if this is just a local thing, or the > new national standard at work, but it seems much more pervasive here > than certain other localities I work with. Professional ethics are hard > to find these days in general with hard times indeed. Anyone else of > hiring capacity notice try hiring *good* people these days? Pretty > difficult if you ask me. > > Overall, working in the tech field here for the past 8 years in a more > senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I want to remain in AZ long-term. > As I get older, my flame to set upon the world diminishes, I'll probably > just wander until I feel comfortable for a bit. I love AZ, but I'm > fairly disparaged by the business opportunities here after all these > years... > > So enough hot-air of my own, take it as you will, but that's my take on > things. Feel free to disagree. :) > > Good discussion indeed, interesting to hear other's opinions on the > matter. > > -mb > > > On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith smith > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think what is really missing from this equation is mentoring and > training. > > > > what I would like to see is some real support from AZ government to > > help make tech companies feel welcome here. This means: > > > > 1) making the valley a good place not only to build a company but to > > build a *career*. this means buy in from both sides of the equation. > > I would like to see a bit more address at lower capital levels, but > > that may prove to be difficult. It seems that most existing concepts > > are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you build a factory > > in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers, but technology > > requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving job market. The > > needs are quite different. The biggest issue with starting a company > > out here is finding people. Where are all the people? in CA. > > because it has a good job market. If we can outsource to India, we > > sure as hell can outsource to Arizona. > > > > 2) setting up low cost legal structure and as you say mentoring to > > really help stimulate technology development. We've seen (at least > > nominal) efforts in the past. Why did they fail? This means real and > > adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production and market. A > > small investment in this area will yield returns in tax base and > > property value by a factor of hundreds. Arizona has the potential to > > pick up a lot of this commercial activity because California is > > currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state to build your > > business. If AZ fails to see the opportunity here, we will lose out > > big time. Currently the budget proceedings are still in gridlock. > > > > the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right idea, he was suggesting > > recently a green technology center near Phx center. I think thats the > > direction AZ needs to go. -jmz > > > > > > > > I like the idea that folks are getting together to network. This is a > really cool idea. Even for non-technical stuff like finding out how people > deal with customers, contracting, book-keeping, ETC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ > > > Keith Smith > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > > > > >> From: Joshua Zeidner > > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX > > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" < > plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us> > > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM > > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM, > > >> Alan Dayley > > >> wrote: > > >> > Joshua, > > >> > > > >> > I put all your replies together in one long document > > >> and reread them. > > >> > I am still confused a bit. Enlightenment via email > > >> rarely occurs. > > >> > However, I really want to understand your position in > > >> this discussion. > > >> > Let me summarize what I understand from your > > >> replies. > > >> > > > >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your comments]--- > > >> > > > >> > - There is a small group or groups of people who keep > > >> spinning off > > >> > communities using tired marketing techniques. This > > >> results in blogs > > >> > but not true communities. > > >> > > > >> > - Some of these people cannot deal with existing > > >> structure and the > > >> > efforts of the past. > > >> > > > >> > - These weak attempts do not articulate goals or > > >> purpose well, if at all. > > >> > > > >> > - We must honestly look at criticism to learn and > > >> improve. > > >> > > > >> > - These weak people need to address the efforts of the > > >> past and > > >> > provide suggestions on how they can be improved upon. > > >> > > > >> > - Getting political support will provide legitimacy to > > >> their efforts. > > >> > > > >> > - Phoenix will attract technology businesses because > > >> of the relative > > >> > low cost and this will help improve things. > > >> > > > >> > - You have first hand experiences of weak, marketing > > >> fronted, > > >> > community building efforts. > > >> > > > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand ideas but get > > >> nowhere with them > > >> > because they are not real businesses. > > >> > > > >> > - People at a co-working location or coffee shop will > > >> not help you > > >> > with your business unless you pay them. > > >> > > > >> > - Most people at co-working started their one person > > >> business after > > >> > being laid-off and are not serious about it. They > > >> are really just > > >> > looking for the next full time gig. This will get in > > >> your way if you > > >> > have real business work to do. > > >> > > > >> > - We must look truthfully at this issue if we are to > > >> make progress. > > >> > > > >> > - There are no serious incubators and entrepreneurial > > >> meetups in > > >> > Phoenix. No announcements on VC funding of companies > > >> so it's not > > >> > really entrepreneurial growth. > > >> > > > >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your comments]--- > > >> > > > >> > I see validity in every one of these comments. I > > >> also think many of > > >> > them can be balanced by the other point of view. I > > >> still have > > >> > questions, if I may ask, before I state too much of my > > >> own thinking. > > >> > I want to learn more about your thinking. > > >> > > > >> > 1. What does "deal with existing structure" mean? > > >> This confuses me, > > >> > not know what structure you are talking about. > > >> > > >> Many user groups have been formed and continue to > > >> exist... how is > > >> different? other than its led by > > >> person Y? I mean dealing > > >> with some of these groups I feel like Im back to age 8 > > >> trying to gain > > >> admittance into the neighborhood treehouse. Perhaps I > > >> should spend > > >> more time drinking beer with these people? Seeing the > > >> same small > > >> group churning out 'communities' is at first funny, then > > >> annoying. I > > >> just see a real lack of serious intent, and unless that is > > >> noted > > >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad. I really dont > > >> think Im being > > >> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out some valid > > >> observations. > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you referring? I > > >> want to > > >> > understand the size and nature of efforts to creating > > >> a community that > > >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did not work as > > >> planned. > > >> > > >> I remember when I first came to AZ that there was an > > >> tech > > >> incubator... what happened to it? Which > > >> political agents currently > > >> support technology development in the valley? what do > > >> they think > > >> about your org? these things are pretty basic... > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 3. What political support is needed? You mean > > >> government funding of > > >> > events or startups or just verbal support or what? > > >> > > >> I wouldn't expect funding, but it would be good to > > >> see some > > >> political buy in. Lack of just supports my opinions, > > >> that its really > > >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor organization. > > >> Without any good > > >> signposts, all this will produce are people who get jaded > > >> and > > >> disaffected with regards to this location. If you had > > >> something > > >> together I doubt that a good politician would turn you > > >> down. > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for someone who is > > >> laid-off to have > > >> > grand ideas, talk about them and they never come to > > >> be? > > >> > > >> Its not. As I said, I don't find any of these > > >> things highly > > >> offensive- but like you I am free to express myself. > > >> Sorry if its not > > >> filled with abundant exaltations. > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people might help each > > >> other in business > > >> > efforts? Isn't strengthening and creating such a > > >> culture a good idea > > >> > or should such a goal not be pursued because it is not > > >> practically > > >> > possible? > > >> > > >> sure. good thread btw. -jmz > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Alan > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua Zeidner > > > >> wrote: > > >> >> another great one: > > >> >> > > >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are the incubators, > > >> the "bootstrap" > > >> >> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial meetups in > > >> Phoenix??? (crickets > > >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't happening as a > > >> serious place where > > >> >> serious people are doing serious things. No one > > >> wants it badly enough > > >> >> here. This paper should be having at least one > > >> article a week on a new > > >> >> startup and the VC firm who funded it. > > >> Helloooo????? is anybody out > > >> >> there...." > > >> >> > > >> >> a better way to phrase this: we need to stop > > >> pretending these > > >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by local > > >> self-employed marketing experts > > >> >> are sufficient. They are not. We should be > > >> asking the hard > > >> >> questions, not playing games. > > >> >> > > >> >> -jmz > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Joshua > > >> Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >>> another point, honestly reading through some > > >> of the criticisms on > > >> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe dwelling creed > > >> myself, I'd have to say > > >> >>> that many of those points are accurate. I've > > >> heard lots of > > >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big ideas around here who > > >> never get anywhere with > > >> >>> them. Sorry, but a word press template > > >> doesn't make you an > > >> >>> entrepreneur. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> "These are the same people you see at > > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any > > >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are not > > >> entrepreneurs they are attention > > >> >>> (inappropriate term)." > > >> >>> > > >> >>> "Many of the Co-Worker location founders > > >> tout other people to > > >> >>> collaborate with and who can "compensate for > > >> your deficiencies". Do > > >> >>> you really believe someone that you are not > > >> paying as an employee is > > >> >>> going to somehow compensate for your > > >> deficiencies and make your > > >> >>> business better? That kind of help doesn't > > >> come without a price." > > >> >>> > > >> >>> oh so true... > > >> >>> > > >> >>> "You are more likely to get a bunch of > > >> people chatting to you over > > >> >>> your "work" so you wont be concentrating as > > >> you should to focus on > > >> >>> your business. Most of these people started > > >> businesses after being > > >> >>> laid off. They are searching for a new job and > > >> they aren't really > > >> >>> serious about their "businesses" so how do you > > >> expect them to give you > > >> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are these the kind > > >> of people you need to > > >> >>> compensate for your deficiencies? A bunch of > > >> people half-as running > > >> >>> their "business" while searching for a real > > >> job and bothering you with > > >> >>> their expertise that got them laid off in the > > >> first place." > > >> >>> > > >> >>> oh so so true... > > >> >>> > > >> >>> I would be willing to bet the commenter > > >> above is an tried and true > > >> >>> successful entrepreneur. Perhaps the reason > > >> I am so skeptical is > > >> >>> because I know these kind of people so well. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> sorry I really wish I could be more > > >> supportive... but : truth is > > >> >>> the foundation of progress. > > >> >>> > > >> >>> -jmz > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Joshua > > >> Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>> Alan, > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> Wish I had time to respond to all > > >> these points right now, not sure > > >> >>>> you read me the way I would prefer > > >> however. Its not so grave a > > >> >>>> warning, just getting the word out on my > > >> first hand experiences. Im > > >> >>>> just one of many- but hopefully an > > >> impartial observer and someone > > >> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ. > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> all the best, jmz > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Alan > > >> Dayley > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>>> Josh, > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> I feel warned. And I don't > > >> understand the reason for such a strong warning. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> There are people in every industry, > > >> government or community who wish > > >> >>>>> to fleece their "community" for their > > >> own profit instead of mutual > > >> >>>>> benefit. The trick is to find the > > >> positive people and ignore the > > >> >>>>> rest. Apply the same filter with > > >> every event, group or blogger in the > > >> >>>>> lists and links I provided. I don't > > >> expect bloggers or techies to be > > >> >>>>> any different, as if being techie > > >> makes one a saint. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Some of those bloggers are purely > > >> commercial or completely neglected, > > >> >>>>> I'm sure. Some of the groups or > > >> events or sites listed are lousy, > > >> >>>>> boring or poor marketing excuses to > > >> sell something. Some are not out > > >> >>>>> to create community but to build a > > >> "kingdom" for their own benefit. > > >> >>>>> They are the duds. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Let's look at a few positives: > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank Manifesto on > > >> their home page at > > >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com. That looks like > > >> a great articulation of their > > >> >>>>> goals and purpose. Ones I strongly > > >> support! > > >> >>>>> -- Read how the manifesto came to be > > >> on Derek's blog at > > >> >>>>> > http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/ > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or is hosting: > > >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long conference on > > >> developing for phones like > > >> >>>>> iPhone or Android > > >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 hour Saturday > > >> event for kids 5-15 to learn > > >> >>>>> programming concepts > > >> >>>>> -- Wordpress training classes for > > >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs > > >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day long > > >> conference on job searching and entreprenuership > > >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a day long > > >> conference on software development > > >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch ted.com videos > > >> and discuss them > > >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night of open mic > > >> music and entertainment > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and > > >> nearly > > >> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix campus with > > >> developers talking about code or > > >> >>>>> making code. Free lunch of pizza and > > >> sub sandwiches was provided too. > > >> >>>>> Put together by volunteers. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - If you're into Microsoft based > > >> development tech, the people who > > >> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day > event at > > >> >>>>> venues like the Orphium Theater and at > > >> no cost to attendees. Fine, > > >> >>>>> it's marketing for MS but it's put on > > >> by volunteers here in the valley > > >> >>>>> and a great way for people to learn > > >> about things that improve their > > >> >>>>> career skills. > > >> >>>>> ( > http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx > ) > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails group has > > >> monthly meetings with around 30 > > >> >>>>> regularly in attendance. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The Java group is also well attended > > >> every month. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put > on > > >> by > > >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost (donation > > >> requested) to attendees. Had about 350 > > >> >>>>> people attend last year (if I recall) > > >> for two days of conference. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in > > >> November > > >> >>>>> for the forth year. This one costs > > >> $100+ but should be as well > > >> >>>>> attended as last year with 200+ > > >> people. Funded and organized in part > > >> >>>>> by a local venture capital group. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago > with > > >> a > > >> >>>>> little over 100 in attendance and has > > >> grown to fill the 600 seat > > >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center for the Arts > > >> back in June. The connections > > >> >>>>> made there live well past the event. > > >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council member and the > > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last > > >> >>>>> time, though he was a bit silly trying > > >> to be Tempe exclusive. That > > >> >>>>> seems to be at least verbal political > > >> support. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on FS/OSS is > > >> being planned for October and > > >> >>>>> should be better than last year. (Go > > >> Hans and team!) > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> I'm not going to go on, though I could > > >> point out several purely social > > >> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west > > >> valley > > >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley Thursday Morning > > >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch, > > >> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet and Eat and > > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch > > >> >>>>> presentations every Wednesday. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Now, having said all of that "giddy > > >> blind optimism," I'd like to > > >> >>>>> understand how the above does not > > >> address the efforts of the past or > > >> >>>>> provide improvement over past efforts. > > >> What are the real needs of the > > >> >>>>> community, if not some of the above? > > >> What would you suggest? How can > > >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it? > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Alan > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:34 PM, > > >> Joshua Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>>>> Alan, > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> while I appreciate your post, > > >> and anyone who is making a sincere > > >> >>>>>> effort to build community in > > >> Phoenix... be warned. There are some > > >> >>>>>> small groups who periodically > > >> spawn off new 'communities' every month > > >> >>>>>> or so. Look closely and you see > > >> the same few people with reused > > >> >>>>>> marketing recipes. Lots of blog > > >> and not too much community I'm > > >> >>>>>> afraid. Their efforts amount to > > >> some simple branding and putting up a > > >> >>>>>> blog. While these things are not > > >> really particularily offensive to > > >> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat detract from > > >> interest in the real needs of the > > >> >>>>>> community here. Some of these > > >> people are just outright idiotic and > > >> >>>>>> cannot deal with existing > > >> structure and refuse to accept the history > > >> >>>>>> of efforts in the past. They > > >> lack any articulation of their goals and > > >> >>>>>> purpose. Often times they have > > >> trouble organizing even small groups > > >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3. Dont forget we've had > > >> a tech incubator here. Lets not > > >> >>>>>> smack down sincere criticism in > > >> favor of giddy blind optimism, > > >> >>>>>> remember you can't improve without > > >> criticism. I would take these > > >> >>>>>> people much more seriously if they > > >> addressed the efforts of the past > > >> >>>>>> and perhaps suggested how they are > > >> going to improve on them, or > > >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate what has changed > > >> that will make them a success. > > >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real political > > >> support would gain some legitimacy. > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> on the positive side, I think > > >> Phoenix will attract a lot of > > >> >>>>>> technology business due to its > > >> relative low cost and no doubt you will > > >> >>>>>> start to see community > > >> infrastructure grow. We are seeing some real > > >> >>>>>> urban development happening in Phx > > >> metro which has me very excited. I > > >> >>>>>> think when the macroeconomic > > >> problems are sorted out we will see > > >> >>>>>> downtown Phx bloom. Im hoping > > >> that the average Arizonan gets involved > > >> >>>>>> in the political process and make > > >> sure that the corruption stays out > > >> >>>>>> of city and state politics. > > >> Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of > > >> >>>>>> positive development trends in Phx > > >> metro. > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> -jmz > > >> >>>>> > > >> --------------------------------------------------- > > >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - > PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > >> >>>>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to > > >> change your mail settings: > > >> >>>>> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>> > > >> >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------- > > >> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > > >> settings: > > >> >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > >> >> > > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > > >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > > >> settings: > > >> > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > >> > > > >> --------------------------------------------------- > > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > > >> settings: > > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss >