On 2024-07-05 00:23, George Toft wrote:
> Had a chance to casually ask about the washed check thing today. Big 
> eye-roll. Police report. Affidavits. Close the checking account. Big 
> investigation. Sounds like a PITA.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> George Toft

I just want to approach this in a way that I have reasonably safe bank 
transactions.  I almost feel I need to learn cyber security.

Thank you for all your feedback!!





> 
> On 7/4/2024 3:14 PM, techlists@phpcoderusa.com wrote:
>> Thanks George!!  Lot s to think about.
>> 
>> 
>> On 2024-07-04 14:23, George Toft wrote:
>>> <scroll>
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> George Toft
>>> 
>>> On 7/4/2024 6:50 AM, techlists@phpcoderusa.com wrote:
>>>> Thank you so much George!!
>>>> 
>>>> Another Question.  I was a police officer in the 80's and 90's. 
>>>> During my tenure the bank was on the hook for any criminal acts as 
>>>> long as the customer was not negligent. I only dealt with this on a 
>>>> couple occasional.
>>>> 
>>>> So If someone gets access to my online banking and I report it in a 
>>>> timely manner, or if someone washes one of my checks and I report it 
>>>> in a timely manner, is the bank on the hook or am I?
>>> 
>>> There are a ton of rules with more acronyms than the IT world has. I 
>>> would love to tell you what I understand, but I'd be talking out my 
>>> ass.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> BTW I thought going old school was the most secure.  I do not trust 
>>>> the Internet.  My daily driver is a Linux Box and I do not use my 
>>>> cellular phone for anything except to talk and read some news.  I am 
>>>> semiretired and have home officed for a long time.
>>> 
>>> Not sure there is any magic incantation that I can say that would put 
>>> you at ease, other than "Risk Analysis," "Government Regulation," 
>>> "Audit and Reviews," "Compliance," "Controls and Countermeasures," 
>>> and "Fines." We have to comply with a bazillion rules all designed to 
>>> protect you, the bank customer. Some regions are really strict and 
>>> their governments show they really care, like the EU - their rules 
>>> are so restrictive. Here's an example: You cannot log into a server 
>>> that serves the EU if Payment Card Information (PCI) is involved with 
>>> the same user ID that you used to log into your work station. This 
>>> prevents lateral movement from an insider attack should the attacker 
>>> get an employee's credentials or Kerberos TGT (Hey!!! It's now 
>>> on-topic!!!) . This is just an example. We have external inspectors 
>>> and government auditors on site almost every two weeks making us 
>>> prove compliance with all the rules, and the bigger we get, the more 
>>> rules and more regulatory auditors we get to talk to. We actually 
>>> have two people on my team of 27 whose job used to be project 
>>> management, now is audit and compliance. All of this to protect you.
>>> 
>>> Let's not forget about the Security Operations Center monitoring 
>>> employee activities. Refer to the GTFOBins email from yesterday. I 
>>> documented a chained attack to get root based on that page, and the 
>>> SOC came knocking saying "George, we noticed suspicious activity on 
>>> this server and this date. Whatcha doin'?" Fortunately, I documented 
>>> everything and emailed it to my manager, so all I had to do was 
>>> forward that back to the SOC.
>>> 
>>> Mail scares me. I had to send my LEA ID in recently via USPS. I'm 
>>> hoping they got it.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Any suggestions are appreciated.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 2024-07-03 21:48, George Toft wrote:
>>>>> Sorry, Kieth, I have bad news for you. You took a 30+ year leap 
>>>>> backwards in security.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can tell you for certain, from my bank fraud analyst friend (just 
>>>>> got promoted to financial crimes investigator), checks are the 
>>>>> second most insecure way of transferring money, first being putting 
>>>>> the money in the envelope. They helped the USPS bust a fraud ring 
>>>>> who worked in the Post Office - fraudsters were pulling checks out 
>>>>> of envelopes inside the local Post Office. My friend pulled out all 
>>>>> the details for the Postmaster General.
>>>>> 
>>>>> ACH is free (for you) and secure and guaranteed by the originator 
>>>>> as they are on the hook to prove the identity of who initiated the 
>>>>> transaction and they have to pay. It's all very complicated, and 
>>>>> I'm not going into details here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I use ACH all the time. My physical devices have multi-layer 
>>>>> physical protection. Logical access control is in-place. Both have 
>>>>> multi-factor authentication. Password resets require multi-factor 
>>>>> authentication.
>>>>> 
>>>>> And the DoD is worse - their systems have so many layers, it was 
>>>>> easier to just let my account get deleted from lack of use and 
>>>>> rebuilt it from scratch. I have notes that tell me screen-by-screen 
>>>>> what to put in each box and which ones to ignore. It's so secure, 
>>>>> legitimate users can't even get in... and this is just my health 
>>>>> insurance.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Where all of this can break down - getting on topic - is with the 
>>>>> SSH protocol and web proxies. When you connect to a website using 
>>>>> HTTPS using a web proxy, your web browser uses it's cert to set up 
>>>>> the connection, or so it thinks. What's really happening is the 
>>>>> proxy is responding to the request and decrypting the message, then 
>>>>> it forms a new request and sends it to the bank, which believes the 
>>>>> proxy and sends it back. Everything gets decrypted on the proxy, so 
>>>>> whoever has admin access to the proxy can see everything. Kinda 
>>>>> like opening envelopes in the mail room :) Disclaimer: This is what 
>>>>> some networking guys told me in a presentation about 10 years ago.
>>>>> 
>>>>> In summary, ACH is safe if you do it from home without a proxy. Of 
>>>>> course "safe" is relative, but it's safer than checks in the mail. 
>>>>> Drop into your bank and ask the branch manager, or call their 
>>>>> customer service and ask. They won't tell you checks are bad, but 
>>>>> they will steer you to ACH and tell you it's better. Break out the 
>>>>> Rosetta Stone and figure out what "better" means in 
>>>>> corporate-speak. Banks are in it to win it, and they don't offer 
>>>>> something for free unless they are saving money (cost avoidance) on 
>>>>> the alternatives.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> 
>>>>> George Toft
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 7/3/2024 6:21 AM, techlists@phpcoderusa.com wrote:
>>>>>> <scroll>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 2024-07-02 18:20, George Toft via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>> I work for a bank, and you would be amazed at how much security 
>>>>>>> is baked into the connecting your browser to their web servers. 
>>>>>>> Makes the NSA look like freshmen. And no, I'm not telling you who 
>>>>>>> I work for.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> George Toft
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I'd like to hear more.  The world is a hostile place.  I recently 
>>>>>> went old school.  I asked the bank to disarm my online banking.  I 
>>>>>> now deal with paper statements and everything gets paid by check. 
>>>>>> Not as convenient as on-line banking, however I am hoping it makes 
>>>>>> my world a little bit more secure.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What are your thoughts?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Keith
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 6/29/2024 5:19 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>> Mike,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The world is a hostile place.  The more precautions you take the 
>>>>>>>> better.  I cover the camera on my cellular phone while not in 
>>>>>>>> use.  I cover the camera that is built into my laptop while it 
>>>>>>>> is not in use. I think on-line banking is dangerous.  At some 
>>>>>>>> point I want to turn off WIFI and go to wired only on my local 
>>>>>>>> net.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> We lock our cars and houses for a reason.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I do not know as much security as I'd like, however it might be 
>>>>>>>> necessary at some point to to become more cyber.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> About 24 years ago the members of the Tucson Free Unix Group 
>>>>>>>> (TFUG) helped me build a server that I ran out of my home.  We 
>>>>>>>> left the email relay open and I got exploited. About 10 years 
>>>>>>>> ago I became root and I accidentally overwrote my home 
>>>>>>>> directory. yikes... both were painful. The first example is a 
>>>>>>>> reason we must be more aware of what we are doing. The 2nd is an 
>>>>>>>> example why we should use sudo as much as we can instead of 
>>>>>>>> becoming root.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Keith
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 2024-06-29 08:55, Michael via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I just realized, while 99% of the people on this list are 
>>>>>>>>> honest there
>>>>>>>>> is the diabolical 1%. So I guess I enter my password for the 
>>>>>>>>> rest of
>>>>>>>>> my life. Or do you think that it really matters considering 
>>>>>>>>> this is
>>>>>>>>> only a mailing list?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 10:22 AM Michael <bmike1@gmail.com> 
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for saying this. I realized that I only needed to run 
>>>>>>>>>> apt as
>>>>>>>>>> root. I didn't know how to make it so I could do that..... but
>>>>>>>>>> chatgt did!
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jun 29, 2024, 5:53 AM Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss
>>>>>>>>>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> NO WORRIES FROM THIS END RUSTY.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> As a general rule, I use sudo only for very specific tasks
>>>>>>>>>>> (usually updating my development package tree on OS X) and no
>>>>>>>>>>> where else will I run anything as root. I have seen what 
>>>>>>>>>>> happens
>>>>>>>>>>> to linux machines that run infected binaries as root and it 
>>>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>>>> get ugly pretty fast. In one case, I couldn’t take the 
>>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>>> out of service because of other items I was involved with, so 
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> simply made part of the dir tree immutable after replacing a 
>>>>>>>>>>> few
>>>>>>>>>>> files in /etc. That would fill up the system logs with an 
>>>>>>>>>>> error
>>>>>>>>>>> message about a specific binary trying to replace a small 
>>>>>>>>>>> number
>>>>>>>>>>> of conf files. Once the offending binary was found, it made 
>>>>>>>>>>> things
>>>>>>>>>>> easier trying to disable it or get rid of it. However, after 
>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> while, I simply pulled the drive and ran it through a Dod 
>>>>>>>>>>> secure
>>>>>>>>>>> erase and installed a newer linux bistro on it. I did use the 
>>>>>>>>>>> same
>>>>>>>>>>> trick with chattr to make /bin, /sbin and /etc immutable. 
>>>>>>>>>>> That
>>>>>>>>>>> last turned out to be handy as I caught someone trying to 
>>>>>>>>>>> rootkit
>>>>>>>>>>> my machine using a known exploit, only they couldn’t get it 
>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> run because the binaries they wanted to replace couldn’t be
>>>>>>>>>>> written to. :)Yes, this would be a bit excessive, but over 
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> long run, proved far less inconvenient than having to wipe 
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> reinstall an OS.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> -Eric
>>>>>>>>>>> From the central Offices of the Technomage Guild, security
>>>>>>>>>>> Applications Dept.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 2024, at 6:43 PM, Rusty Carruth via PLUG-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> (Deep breath.  Calm...)
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't figure out how to respond rationally to the below, 
>>>>>>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>> all I'm going to say is - before you call troll, you might 
>>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>>> to research the author, and read a bit more carefully what 
>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote.  I don't believe I recommended any of the crazy things 
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> suggest.  And I certainly didn't intend to imply any of that.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, it may not have  been clear, so I'll just 
>>>>>>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>>>> "Sorry that what I wrote wasn't clear, but english isn't my 
>>>>>>>>>>> first
>>>>>>>>>>> language.  Unfortunately its the only one I know".
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> And on that note, I'll shut up.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/26/24 15:05, Ryan Petris wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like you're trolling so I'm not going to spend very 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> much
>>>>>>>>>>> time on this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's been a generally good security practice for at least 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> last 25+ years to not regularly run as a privileged user,
>>>>>>>>>>> requiring some sort of escalation to do administrative-type 
>>>>>>>>>>> tasks.
>>>>>>>>>>> By using passwordless sudo, you're taking away that 
>>>>>>>>>>> escalation.
>>>>>>>>>>> Why not just run as root? Then you don't need sudo at all. In
>>>>>>>>>>> fact, why even have a password at all? Why encrypt? Why don't 
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> just put all your data on a publicly accessible FTP server 
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> just grab stuff when you need it? The NSA has all your data 
>>>>>>>>>>> anyway
>>>>>>>>>>> and you don't have anything to hide so why not just leave it 
>>>>>>>>>>> out
>>>>>>>>>>> there for the world to see?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for something malicious needing to be written to use 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> sudo,
>>>>>>>>>>> why wouldn't it? sudo is ubiquitous on unix systems; if it 
>>>>>>>>>>> didn't
>>>>>>>>>>> at least try then that seams like a pretty dumb malicious 
>>>>>>>>>>> script
>>>>>>>>>>> to me.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You also don't necessarily need to open/run something for 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it to
>>>>>>>>>>> run. IIRC there was a recent image vulnerability in Gnome's
>>>>>>>>>>> tracker-miner application which indexes files in your home
>>>>>>>>>>> directory. And before you say that wouldn't happen in KDE, it 
>>>>>>>>>>> too
>>>>>>>>>>> has a similar program, I believe called Baloo.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There also exists the recent doas program and the systemd
>>>>>>>>>>> replacement run0 to do the same.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 26, 2024, at 12:23 PM, Rusty Carruth via
>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, I'd like to start a bit of a discussion on this.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> First, I know that for some reason RedHat seems to think 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>> sudo is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bad/insecure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to know the logic there, as I think the argument 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FOR
>>>>>>>>>>> using sudo
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is MUCH stronger than any argument I've heard (which,
>>>>>>>>>>> admittedly, is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pretty close to zero) AGAINST it.   Here's my thinking:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Allowing users to become root via sudo gives you:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - VERY fine control over what programs a user can use as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> root
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - The ability to remove admin privs (ability to run as 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> root)
>>>>>>>>>>> from an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individual WITHOUT having to change root password 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everywhere.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now, remember, RH is supposedly 'corporate friendly'. As a
>>>>>>>>>>> corporation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that 2nd feature is well worth the price of admission, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PLUS I
>>>>>>>>>>> can only
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allow certain admins to run certain programs? Very nice.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, for example, at my last place I allowed the 'tester' 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> user
>>>>>>>>>>> to run
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fdisk as root, because they needed to partition the disk 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>>>>>> test.  In
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my case, and since the network that we ran on was totally
>>>>>>>>>>> isolated from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the corporate network, I let fdisk be run without needing 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>>> password.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, and if they messed up and fdisk'ed the boot partition, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> was no big
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deal - I could recreate the machine from scratch (minus
>>>>>>>>>>> whatever data
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hadn't been copied off yet - which would only be their 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>>> recent run),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in 10 minutes (which was about 2 minutes of my time, and 8
>>>>>>>>>>> minutes of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scripted 'dd' ;-) However, if the test user wanted to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become
>>>>>>>>>>> root using
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> su, they had to enter the test user password.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, back to the original question - setting sudo to not
>>>>>>>>>>> require a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> password.  We should have asked, what program do you want 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> run as root
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without requiring a password? How secure is your system? 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>>>>> else do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you use it for?  Who has access?  etc, etc, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's one other minor objection I have to the 'zero 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> defense'
>>>>>>>>>>> statement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> below - the malicious thing you downloaded (and, I assume 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ran)
>>>>>>>>>>> has to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> written to USE sudo in its attempt to break in, I believe, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't matter HOW open your sudo was. (simply saying 'su 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>>>>>> myscript'
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> won't do it).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, if you're truly paranoid about stuff you download, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> should:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1 - NEVER download something you don't have an excellent
>>>>>>>>>>> reason to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe is 'safe', and ALWAYS make sure you actually
>>>>>>>>>>> downloaded it from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where you thought you did.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 - For the TRULY paranoid, have a machine you use to 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> download
>>>>>>>>>>> and test
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> software on, which you can totally disconnect from your
>>>>>>>>>>> network (not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> JUST the internet), and which has NO confidential info, 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> which you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> can erase and rebuild without caring.  Run the downloaded
>>>>>>>>>>> stuff there,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for a long time, until you're pretty sure it won't bite 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 - For the REALLY REALLY paranoid, don't download 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anywhere, disconnect from the internet permanently, get
>>>>>>>>>>> high-tech locks
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for your doors, and wrap your house in a faraday cage!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And probably don't leave the house....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The point of number 3 is that there is always a risk, even
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'well-known' software, and as someone else said - they're
>>>>>>>>>>> watching you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway.  The question is how 'safe' do you want to be? And 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how
>>>>>>>>>>> paranoid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are you, really?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, talk about rabbit hole! ;-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Let the flames begin!' :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 6/25/24 18:50, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wanted sudo not to require a password.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please reconsider this... This is VERY BAD security 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> practice.
>>>>>>>>>>> There's basically zero defense if you happen to download/run
>>>>>>>>>>> something malicious.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 25, 2024, at 6:01 PM, Michael via 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> PLUG-discuss
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then I remember that a PLUG member mentioned ChatGPT 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>>>> good at troubleshooting so I figured I'd give it a go. I 
>>>>>>>>>>> sprint
>>>>>>>>>>> about half an hour asking it the wrong question but after 
>>>>>>>>>>> that it
>>>>>>>>>>> took 2 minutes. I wanted sudo not to require a password. it 
>>>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>> wonderful! now I don't have to bug you guys. so it looks like 
>>>>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>>>>> is the end of the user group unless you want to talk about OT
>>>>>>>>>>> stuff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- :-)~MIKE~(-:
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