Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss said on Mon, 24 Oct 2022 08:58:12 -0700

>Choice of desktop environments is always going to be subjective... for
>instance I think that people that use i3, DWM, and other minimal
>window managers are masochists; 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

> there's just no way I could justify
>spending the time learning and setting up those desktop environments;

Why not? Learn them once, adapt them to your exact workflow, and use
them for years. They change only to make changes almost unanimously
considered improvements, so your learning time is an investment well
spent. I've used Openbox for eight years, and spent little time
learning it after the first month.

>I just want to use my computer.

So do we all. Unfortunately, we all have to keep learning, one way or
another. Just ask users of the abandoned Unity. Or those left behind
who refused to jump off the cliff when Gnome2 (which I used
enthusiastically) became the comparatively inscrutable Gnome3. This
move was so unpopular it spawned the popular MATE Desktop as a Gnome2
continuation. Just over 10 years ago the forced conversion from Kmail to
the Nepomuk and Akonadi encumbered Kmail 2 sent users flying to other
email clients. I hear of hardly anybody using kmail on a regular basis.

>
>Telling newbies to avoid GNOME/KDE because they're "slow" and pushing
>them off into, IMO, inferior desktop environments is just going to
>make them go back to Windows. 

Let them go back to windows. Not everybody belongs in the Linux world.
Far too much of Linux' choice and DIYability has been sacrificed on the
alter of "Grandma", "the Newbie", and "Windows users". Gnome now
depends on what init system you use. What could *possibly* go wrong?

Also, Gnome/KDE being slow is a minor problem. The big problem is that
they're massively entangled and hostile to anything outside their
world, and this entanglement produces bugware.

> GNOME for instance may have been "slow"
>11 years ago with GNOME 3 was original released, but it's been
>optimized since and runs fine on even 10 year old hardware.

As long as you agree to install the massively entangled systemd.

>
>It's the same when you tell a newbie to avoid standard distros such as
>Debian/Ubuntu and instead go to ones like Devuan or Void because they
>don't use systemd; 

Name me one newbie disadvantage of Devuan compared to Debian. As far as
Void, yeah, only the intelligent newbie who wants real control over his
computer should be advised to go to Void.

> you're doing a disservice to them and the
>community. Systemd distros that use KDE and especially GNOME are well
>integrated and things tend to just work without tweaking.

s/integrated/entangled

As far as just working without tweaking, so does Devuan. And I
think, but am not sure, that when you install Void you pick the CD for
the source instead of the Internet, you also get a "just works"
situation. 
>
>P.S. When I say "inferior", what I'm really trying to convey is that
>they're less polished,

It's a computer, not a 1957 Chevy.

> less integrated, 

Less entangled and therefore more modular and easier to modify to suit
one's needs.

>have a smaller group of
>developers, 

Which is a good thing, because the last decade and a half shows us an
excess of developers, especially the kind whose salaries are paid by
the likes of Redhat, lead to first mission creep and then mission kudzu.

and generally move slower. 

Which is a good thing. You yourself said you just want to use your
computer, rather than continuously learning how to deal with its
changes.

> You're going to spend more time
>trying to figure out how to tweak things because the communities are
>smaller. 

The preceding is true, but I've found in most cases those communities
are big enough to help you solve your problems.

> That and you're going to be relegated to using worse
>interfaces for things like bluetooth, wifi, and ethernet, because you
>have to use utilities like wicd or network-manager-applet instead of
>the wonderful interfaces built into GNOME or KDE.

I can't speak to the wonderful interfaces of Gnome or KDE, but did you
know that the Devuan project now has a replacement for wicd and
network-manager? Developed by DeVuan, not DeBian.

I'm all for progress, but never at the expense of complexity and
monolithic entanglement.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
Summer 2022 featured book: Thriving in Tough Times
http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore/thrive.htm
---------------------------------------------------
PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org
To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings:
https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss