On 2022-08-28 16:51, techlists@phpcoderusa.com wrote: > Main PLUG discussion list > > I started this thread because I do not see any problems with PHP. I > think the community is trying to fix something that is not broke. > Yikes I probably just pissed-off a few people. I'm not here to fight, > I am here to learn. > > I think what is broke is the community. The only thing that I think > is missing is a compiler or some sort of machine code > generator/interpreter like Java. > > Please educate me. > > > > On 2022-08-28 01:09, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote: >> My opinion might not count for much since I don’t really program >> with PHP, although I spent about a year with V4 in 2000. I do enjoy >> looking at the language updates and seeing what small steps the PHP >> language Gods take each time it’s updated. In contrast to C++, PHP >> seems to be evolving at a snail’s pace. > > Interesting. Not sure what needs to change. Any thoughts? > >> >> The issues about interpreted (aka, “scripting”) languages is >> bogus. Python is now the #1 most popular programming language in the >> world, and it’s interpreted. So there goes that theory. >> >> https://skilldeck.org/learning/best-programming-language-to-learn [2] >> >> My take on PHP is that it has been in a stuck-in-the-middle state for >>> 20 years, between being a “structured/procedural programming” and >> “object-oriented” language. Kind of like C++ was before V1.1 or so >> was introduced. > > I seem to recall about 5 years ago there was some debate going on > between the those who thought we should turn to procedural programming > and those who thought OOP was the only way. > > I can see the need for both in PHP. PHP is often embedded in HTML and > i am thinking it needs to be procedural. There other times PHP is > used to create an app and OOP is probably the best approach. > > >> >> Still, while you can use both to create OO code, you can also use both >> to write horrid code that runs just fine and doesn’t use any of the >> class-related language constructs. > > Isn't that a hiring manager and team manager's issue not the language. > In 1988 I did a short internship at the city of Tucson. It was all > spaghetti code. Was that COBOL's fault or a lack of leadership. I > think it was a short coming in management. > > It was a horrid experience. > >> >> Over the years, C++ has been embraced by the OOP community and you >> don’t see anybody demanding that C++ compilers be able to compile >> any old C code. The C standard is still evolving and it keeps taking >> on bits and pieces of things inspired by C++, but it’s really still >> not an OOP language. > > What you said is disturbing. C and C++ ae two different languages. > It is my understanding C is not object oriented while C++ is. If > someone does not like C then move to C++ do not cross pollinate. > >> >> But I’ve heard PHP coders constantly complaining about the fact that >> the use of classes in PHP kills performance. Yeah, as if Python users >> think that’s even relevant! Python is 100% OOP right out of the >> gate, and they seem proud of it. Both are interpreted, and both are >> probably about as efficient compared with a compiled language. (Are >> there any performance comparisons between equivalent PHP and Python >> apps?) > > Interesting. The minimalists continue to complain. Yikes!! I'm a > minimalist and also recognize server assets are cheap. So why worry > so much? > > I have a friend that refuses to use WordPress because it is bloatware. > Yikes!! It really comes down to a business decision. > > I spoke with a guy who was running two steel mills using a PHP web app > that ran on shared hosting. > > > > >> >> If an OOP-based interpreted language can attain the "#1 most popular >> language” slot and nobody cares about the little bit of overhead >> that the OO part imposes on the execution time, then perhaps it’s >> time for PHP coders to suck-it-up and learn how to REALLY code in OOP >> idioms! > > Please expand on OOP idioms. > > > >> Until then, it’s the PHP programming community that’s >> shooting itself in the feet, not the language. Get rid of the >> “holes” in the language that allow it to process old code that >> breaks all of the encapsulation rules and make the use of classes more >> direct rather than forcing the use of squirrly syntax that is >> constantly reminding people “this isn’t really an object-oriented >> language … but you can use it that way … IF YOU INSIST”. >> > > I'd like to understand more, please expand on this. > > > > >> This is 2022. Nobody teaches plain old structured/procedural >> programming any more — they don’t even say they’re teaching OOP, >> it’s just what all modern languages support today. Except PHP, which >> cannot seem to decide if it’s ever going to grow up and let go of >> its procedural roots. >> >> (Perhaps a big part of the problem is all of the old procedural PHP >> code that people are scared to refactor. So instead they just start >> over in Python?) > > Is that true? Do you think Python is the language that will topple > PHP? > > >> >> -David Schwartz >> >>> On Aug 27, 2022, at 7:11 PM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss >>> wrote: >>> >>> Just in time to add another thread that might be as intense as the >>> sysd...etc thread. >>> >>> For years I have heard that people say PHP is not a real language. >>> >>> One guy says interpreted languages are not real programming >>> languages, they are scripting languages. I guess way back when I >>> was an xBase developer I must have not been a real programmer. Back >>> in the day The only compiled xBase was Clipper Summer 87 by >>> Nantucket Corp. I think it was possible to compile xBase code but I >>> never did except with Clipper Summer 87. I think Visual Fox was >>> compiled... >>> >>> Another says the barrier to entry makes it possible for >>> non-professional programmers to get hired and to mess up the code >>> base. Isn't that a hiring manager's issue? >>> >>> I think PHP is a great language and a lot of others must think so >>> too. >>> >>> I really liked the decade long ride with PHP 5. I think 7 brought >>> some good changes in the area of speed and the removal of Register >>> globals. >>> >>> PHP must be doing something right because it is run by upwards of >>> 80% of the websites on the Internet. >>> >>> I do think the PHP team is moving too fast. We now have version 8. >>> >>> So what is wrong with PHP and where are we going in such a hurry? >>> >>> And finally why does PHP have to be anything but simple stupid? >>> --------------------------------------------------- >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss [1] >> >> >> >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] >> https://u2206659.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=SJEG7TF39YLaAIMD0HhsfC6E-2FcJXOs2D1VhGcvn2YkObFLMBOC3gmante55BOqf2F-2ByuZjZxeWAcK3DSlXP4Xtp4dQImX1G2Oq-2BQoN6woQ4-3DIGUn_o-2BjQxMsWfboH-2B-2BcY2qb3IYCoqvthnvff9ftZz0pNEJ2tF1jbVlVBtrlaPYq4av3G-2Bt7mm8IMBuhSVqpCcnh12JGn5VGiBp4ej1D8wF4Jr4FTQlK7hoEK3EP8wIQljijQxbFmgL1DTcUs-2FK-2FluF7H6a3cTOBL2PtAMGgoX3WBKv4u8sIx0qipYDd9nqYkaVO6jawoylmYYYvBm5MyF-2BK45amc-2F04l8F1e4LxUBQA1xds-3D >> [2] >> https://u2206659.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=SJEG7TF39YLaAIMD0HhsfJVUp5k4FPRQWFpjhE34mwwmabVu4BgQFRZ5Xq2IUprGzUTK3y1lVUwk6pWsIx2TMhl19zUBjc-2FtfGZ5-2Bt75qno-3DK04D_o-2BjQxMsWfboH-2B-2BcY2qb3IYCoqvthnvff9ftZz0pNEJ2tF1jbVlVBtrlaPYq4av3G-2Bt7mm8IMBuhSVqpCcnh12HsoQ-2BSiGw-2FyHTUky4JFaIjx5N3yakVaDRcDfXlnzwEr0d0hYkuXQ-2BqpePSh9x8ifL92Pji0rlXG52S0d-2FX1zORp0Eodq5GYOSdPU2fi8ffwT7Jc9xpfgMod0dxrFpVEeP6FVqeNGyel-2By4K7C3Jx0c-3D >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss