On 2022-08-18 14:09, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote: > I’m really not trying to get into a political debate, except that > the “doom and gloom” stuff seems to keep coming from the same > sources, in the same way that Arctic cold fronts always come from the > North. At the end of the day, it’s just another day. > > Keith chose the Subject as “Opportunity” and then started the > discussion assuming “doom and gloom”. Smart investors make money > whether the market is going up, down, or sideways. I don’t pay > attention to this nonsense, and the best political advice I have is > for others to ignore it as well. > > For quite a while I watched several news broadcasts daily, and one day > I was sitting there and had this epiphany: this is like listening to a > daily update of a horse race that just keeps going on ... day after > day, week after week, month after month, forever. > > You tune in each day and hear this horse is edging out this other > horse, and you hear interviews about the people riding them, with > people giving their opinions about how each rider’s background is > affecting their strategy and justifying their current position in the > race today. Each day the horses are in slightly different places > relative to each other, but they’re all moving forward. Sometimes > one trips and falls, and all hell breaks loose. There are dozens of > horses and riders in the race, and MILLIONS of people watching and > opining on what’s going on. > > EVERYBODY HAS AN OPINION. So what? > > The thing is, from one day to the next, NONE OF THE OPINIONS MATTER. > What matters is THE RACE EACH OF US IS IN OURSELVES. > > Some people choose to see “doom and gloom” while others choose to > see “everything is looking up”. > > I tend to go with this: The sun is going to keep rising every day, and > life will go on given half a chance. Everything else is just noise. > > I don’t claim to have a crystal ball, but I do believe that when a > small number of companies are responsible for a significant portion of > financial leverage in the world, the overall economy is going to tend > to follow in their wake, even if just a little. That’s were we’re > at today, especially in the tech world. > > Beyond that, I believe there’s a huge mega-trend happening in the > world today, which is tied to climactic changes. You can listen to the > pundits all you want, but we cannot deny the fact that average > temperatures are rising, watersheds are drying up, and water is > becoming scarce. This may be man-made and it may be simply one of > Mother Nature’s cyclic activities. But it’s not something any ONE > of us can do much about. > > Russia is trying to blow up a nuclear plant in Ukraine. They might as > well drop a nuclear bomb there. Talk about cutting off their nose to > spit their face! But that’s what they seem to think is needed to > “win” — win by blowing up their own feet. Yes, there are truly > stupid people in the world and we’re watching them destroy > themsevles day by day in that part of the world. It’s not as if > Nature is doing enough damage to agricultural production, these guys > want to ensure one of the most fertile farming regions of the world > won’t be able to produce ANYTHING for CENTURIES. What kind of idiots > do that? > > One thing is certain: a LOT of people around the world are going to > start freaking out and throwing money at would-be solutions. THERE > LIES OPPORTUNITY! > > Look at all of the things that burn fossil fuels; that run > inefficiently and produce more heat than needed; that are expensive to > break-down and recycle; that waste water, energy, and can’t be > re-used — all of these things are going to be looked at with > increasing scrutiny by others even as they’re watching the bigger > horse races, and they are going to be making buying decisions based on > this stuff. > > Yes, this list is about technology. And technology presents a HUGE > OPPORTUNITY to fill the needs of people who are going to be looking to > down-size, right-size, and make their lives more EFFICIENT. A lot of > them are going to be us Baby Boomers who are becoming empty-nesters > and want to simplify our lives. What sorts of OPPORTUNITIES DO WE > HAVE? > > They’re not all technical. > > For example, next February the Super Bowl is going to be here in > Phoenix again. Last time it was here, I noticed something: you could > not get a room or a car for a 75 mile radius from early January to > late February. Car rental folks pulled in cars from Tucson, San Diego, > LA, Las Vegas, and Alberqueue, and there was STILL A SHORTAGE! > > Low supply combined with high demand caused prices to SKYROCKET. > > These people aren’t looking for Linux servers! They want a place to > sleep and a car to get around in! If you have a house and you can move > out for a few weeks, you might be able to rent your house and car out > for $2000-$4000 per week! Now THERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY! > > Or just buy some nice used cars, put them up on GetAround, and offer > to park them at AirBNB places people will be renting next winter. > Offer them $100 a week and charge their tenants $500 a week. If that > seems like a lot, consider that renting cars at the airport will be > starting at $150 PER DAY for most of Jan-Mar! > > I suggest using GetAround because those guys have done something with > TECHNOLOGY that gives them a leg up on their competition: they have a > dongle that plugs into the data plug inside the car and lets customers > access the vehicles via an app on their phone. Someone can park the > car wherever, put the keys in the glove box, exit the vehicle, lock it > up and walk away. It’s ready for the next renter. That is, you > don’t need someone there to collect and hand-off the keys when > renters come and go. > > Forget the “doom and gloom” nonsense. OPPORTUNITY lies in > observing TRENDS and capitalizing on them. Phoenix and Arizona are > going to see a surge of nearly 500k tourists this coming winter due to > the Super Bowl, and they have already set aside a LOT OF $$$ to spend > while they’re here. They are going to spend those $$$ regardless of > what the nightly horse-race reports might be saying at that time. The > daily horse-race reports are irrelevant! If you’re watching them, > then STOP! Watch the larger trends. > > Intel is the largest semiconductor company in the world. Apple is no > longer using Intel’s chips. That leaves a big hole to fill in > Intel’s sales. They’ve known about it for a while now, and > they’ve been busy plugging that hole. At the same time, there’s a > world-wide “chip shortage”. Seems like a PERFECT OPPROTUNITY FOR > INTEL, right? > > The new legislation that was just passed contains a bunch of > “incentives” for consumers in the form of tax credits for buying > EVs. But more than that, it’s a cosmic-sized CROW-BAR being held > over the heads of major corporations who have spent the past 30 years > doing all they can to CUT MANUFACTURING COSTS by MOVING OFF-SHORE. > These tax credits will ONLY be available to companies who MOVE THEIR > PRODUCTION BACK ON-SHORE! > > A lot of them are going to scream and holler like stuck pigs and try > everything they can to get politicians to make their lives easier. > > And I guarantee there are plenty of startups who are going to JUMP AT > THE OPPORTUNITIES being created by this new legislation to sneak into > the holes being created by these OLD-SCHOOL LAZY-ASS COMPANIES who > don’t want to change. > > Congress has thrown down a challenge to the entire TECH community: > INNOVATE OR DIE! > > If you’re a company that has bet your future on Li-Ion battery > technology, then this certainly looks like DOOM-AND-GLOOM. > > If you’re a kid about to attend college and are wondering what to > get into: consider BATTERY CHEMISTRY. This will be a GREAT choice for > a solid 20-year career path today. And it will be there regardless of > what politicians end up doing, because the big fat lazy companies with > all the money have been milking Li-Ion technology and invested very > little in INNOVATION. That’s the way of the world. And it creates > HUGE OPPORTUNITIES in its wake. > > I have no idea what Linux has to do with any of this, but the subject > was “OPPORTUNITY”. Seize it. > David, You provide a bunch to think about. What does this have to do with Linux? We are on a Linux list and I would guess most are not going to retool. I'm 66 and do not think I will retool, so I am looking at some simple things that might make my life better while we enter a period of chaos. I am a PHP programmer and I know less about Linux than I would like to. For me the opportunities have to be in the realm of LAMP/LEMP. PHP is so ingrained that it will be around for decades. Eventually it will go the way of COBOL... AND COBOL is still around. I think a person could make a career being a COBOL developer. So I think the question is what are the opportunities for the Linux admins and the associated technologies? > -David Schwartz > >> On Aug 18, 2022, at 8:58 AM, techlists@phpcoderusa.com wrote: >> >> David, >> >> I have always enjoyed your thoughts, even though we do not agree >> when it comes to political issues. And I think your a smart guy. >> >> On 2022-08-17 03:25, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote: >> >> I'll pass on this one because it could get politically charged very >> quickly and my intention were to try to understand what is coming. >> >> I posted to this list hoping for thoughts from technical people. >> >>> I don’t know what you’re referring to exactly about the >>> economy >>> crashing, other than the typical doom-and-gloom nonsense that the >>> right-wing propaganda machinery floods the airwaves with whenever >>> Democrats are in charge of things. The truth is, things are always >>> shifting, slowly but surely. >> >> I hope it is all doom-and-gloom. I'm not up for an economic crash. >> You and I have lived though some interesting times. >> >> - Oil embargo, which killed the musical car era. >> - 70's and 80's which kept my wages 20% behind the real cost of >> living. >> - 30 years of perpetual wars.... >> - The creation of the Internet and all that has come with it. >> >> I do not think what is currently taking place is "right-wing >> propaganda". >> >> I am hearing and reading: >> >> - Ukraine and Russia produce 70% of the worlds wheat which is not >> making it to the market this year. >> - Ukraine and Russia produce 70% of the worlds commercial fertilizer >> which is not making it to the market this year. >> - We are experiencing a severe drought world wide. >> - Some are saying there will be famine and food shortages. I'm >> seeing vacant shelves at the grocery stores. >> - The dollar is losing it's place as the world's reserve currency. >> That means dollars going to come home causing even more inflation. >> - Some are saying it could be as bad as the Great Depression. And I >> truly hope this is "right-wing propaganda". >> - Some are saying we will see double digit inflation for 10 years. >> How do I plan my wife's retirement with that? I'll work till I >> die... I did the math. If I save $1000 today, in 10 years it will >> have $350 of buying power. >> >> I was hoping to spend my old age working on my old muscle car and >> old RV. I do not own either. Oh, and throw in some watching the >> grass grow. >> >> I do not want this to turn political. I am in search of wisdom. >> >> Here are my thoughts. >> >> 1) Transition away from Windows and MAC. Buy some old hardware, >> while it is cheep. In fact 6 months from now lots of things might >> be cheep - new and old. I read Walmart is laying off 300 executives >> dues to the slow in the economy and having an over stocked >> situation. I would buy as much RAM as you might need for your new >> and old hardware and replace spinners with SSD drives. >> >> 2) I know this is a Linux list so I assume most know Linux better >> that most others. I am a programmer. A PHP developer. I >> understand most developers do not know Linux. I recommend learning >> how to configure and maintain a LAMP server for testing and >> development. The P stands for PHP. >> >> 3) I would recommend that those who do not have the skills to >> maintain a Linux desktop should burn some midnight oil and learn the >> basics. I had to move to Windows 6 years ago because of a business >> need. Windows 10 has 3 more years before it's end of life. By that >> time I will be back on Linux for good. >> >> 4) Create a blog and journal your learning and experiences. >> >> 5) If you are looking for a job, find the hiring managers and ask >> them to mentor you so you can find the door into what you want to >> do. >> >> 6) I think a lot of businesses will fail. AND out of the ashes new >> businesses will form. These new businesses will need to use >> technology to their benefit. What technologies will they need? >> >> 7) Linux and web programming is turning into, and may have already >> turned into a cottage industry. For hosting there only needs to be >> one admin local to the facility. All others can work remote. >> >> 8) Covid caused a shift away from the office to the spare bedroom. >> In an effort to save money I think most companies will have a hybrid >> model. Employees will need to make it into the office periodically >> while working from home for the majority of the time. The amount of >> office space necessary to run a business will shrink. Office space >> should be cheep for the foreseeable future. >> >> 9) We have become a mail order economy. I only buy groceries in >> person and that will change within the next few month. I used to >> buy everything retail. Not anymore. And that saves me time and >> gas. I tip so the tip is probably what I would spend on gas... >> however it does spare my car wear and tear. >> >> Those are my thoughts. I would like to hear from others. >> >>> As for technology, I’d make this simple observation: >>> At some point, the world leader in CPU chips — Intel — was >>> following along the same path they had been taking for years and >>> was >>> working on a 5 GHz CPU when they realized that as they kept trying >>> to >>> speed-up CPUs, the amount of effort needed to extract the heat >>> from >>> the chips would make the hardware far too expensive and cumbersome >>> to >>> remain viable. So they decided that multiple CPUs on the chip >>> where >>> the CPU speed was around 2-3 GHz would be better in the long-run. >>> I’m guessing that the folks at a world leader in computer >>> engineering — Apple Computer — also figured this out. Intel >>> sells >>> chips; Apple sells computer systems. Dell buys Intel chips and >>> integrates video cards from another vendor that use Intel’s >>> GPUs. >>> Apple doesn’t really care who makes what; they just want to >>> maximize >>> their profits. >>> Coincidentally, video cards have been hard to come by because the >>> GPUs >>> have been getting hijacked for use by crytocurrency miners. A >>> large >>> portion of these have Intel GPUs on them. >>> Apple decided it might make more sense to simply put a bunch of >>> CPUs >>> and GPUs on one substrate and then tune their software to run on >>> this >>> sort of architecture, alleviating the dependency on separate CPU >>> and >>> GPU chips and cards. There’s a side-effect in that nobody is >>> going >>> to be hijacking their GPUs for other purposes. >>> Intel apparently didn’t want to lose the revenues they’ve been >>> earning from their GPU chip sales to crypto miners and, well, >>> Apple is >>> no longer using either Intel’s CPUs or GPUs. >>> So while some say the economy is “crashing”, the 10 largest >>> corporations in the world are all reporting record profits and >>> growth. >>> The stuff politicians are doing to continue long-term policies >>> that >>> enable corporations to siphon off more and more money from >>> consumers >>> is appalling, and may well lead to a lot more discomfort and pain >>> for >>> consumers, but certainly not from corporate shareholders and >>> execs. If >>> you want to profit from that shift, then buy stocks in these large >>> and >>> growing companies. Warren Buffet has large holdings in them, as >>> well >>> as Apple. He also owns a large utility company in Nevada. >>> Speaking of utility companies, one thing that is surely going to >>> help >>> “crash” the economy (for consumers) over the coming decade is >>> the >>> increasing growth of EVs and their need to get their fuel from the >>> power grid. The same power grid that’s going to be used to power >>> computers and crypto miners. Some with politically-motivated >>> arguments >>> might see it as convenient that states like Arizona have passed >>> laws >>> that give utility companies the power to punish consumers who want >>> to >>> install their own renewable energy sources and batteries to become >>> independent of the power grid. Yes, we’re talking about those >>> folks >>> who’d like to unhook from the inevitable increases we’re going >>> to >>> see in the cost of electricity, especially since the cost of fuel >>> to >>> power generators is also skyrocketing — and the profits from >>> those >>> price increases is nearly all flowing into the bank accounts of >>> the >>> monarchy of Saudi Arabia (with the help of elected officials in >>> Congress, both past and present, members of both political >>> parties). >> >> I have been pondering the grid issue. Was not long ago the >> electricity vendors where complaining about the load that cellular >> phones and other devices where putting on the grid. >> >>> The tea leaves are pretty clear to many readers: there’s a big >>> shift >>> towards more and more things in our life that require electricity >>> to >>> run, and it’s inevitable that the cost of said power is going to >>> go >>> up. But the price of gas is also going up, which is contributing >>> to >>> the increase in power costs. Buying a bunch of old computers that >>> consume 3x the power of the newest computers does not seem like a >>> smart way to avoid increases in the cost of electricity. >> >> Are you saying my 8 year old Dell i5 is using too much power and I >> should replace it? >> >> Not sure how to evaluate that. My i5 is old and has 4 cores, 16GB >> of RAM, and a 1TB SSD. It is paid for so I wonder if spending $500 >> or more, to replace it is really worth the savings in electricity. >> Maybe I would be better served by adding 1k or 2k of solar to the >> mix. >> >> You seem to be in favor of dumping old iron in favor of more >> efficient hardware. I'm thinking the opposite. I'm in favor of >> adding RAM (if needed) and an SSD drive to old stuff and use Linux >> ... kind of a counter culture thing... Off grid solar has always >> appealed to me because it "feels" counter culture. Taking control >> of ones life. >> >> Remember the good old days about 20 years ago? Linux was counter >> culture. I first learning of Linux in 1998 and I ran out and bought >> a box set. I was hooked because it was not main stream, it was >> counter culture. I'm thinking we need to get some of that back. >> >>> Make your home more thermally efficient so you don’t need to run >>> your A/C as much. Replace electronic equipment with newer >>> lower-power >>> stuff. Reduce your overall carbon footprint by 10%. Grow your own >>> fruits and veggies. Set up a wind turbine or solar panels to >>> charge >>> batteries that power your electronic equipment at home, but do not >>> connect them to the grid. Buy an inexpensive EV to get around >>> town, >>> because in the long-run it’ll be far cheaper than a gas-powered >>> vehicle. (I recommend a Bolt or a Leaf as they’re the cheapest >>> EVs >>> on the market today and will remain so for 2-3 years due to >>> factors >>> like the global chip shortage. I got a 2019 Leaf SL Plus, and I >>> *LOVE* >>> it! It only costs me 4¢/mile in electricity to drive.) >> >> Your car sounds nice. I home office and have for a long, long time. >> With online shopping and delivery I might drive 50 - 200 miles a >> month. My goal is to get down to 50 miles per month every month. I >> think I can. >> >> I own a 2009 Nissan Xterra. It gets 16 - 20 MPG. Not very good. I >> do not recall the last time I purchased gas. I fill up at 3/4 of a >> tank. I think I buy a 1/4 tank of gas every 6 - 8 weeks. >> >> I hear some in D.C. say I should buy an EV. Ironically my Nissan >> might outlive me. Pretty sure it will so why replace? >> >>> While you’re at it, figure out how to generate $100-$200 per day >>> online to supplement your income. >> >> Good advice. That was what I was hoping to hear. Any thoughts on >> how? >> >> $100-$200 a day or $3000 - $6000 per month might replace some >> people's day job. >> >> I've been following Income School. I can tell you the Internet is >> very competitive. Some are able to make affiliate marketing work >> for them. To do so one needs to be able to write and to write >> articles for what people are searching for, and that are competitive >> for that topic. >> >> I do think we are at a crossroads where we will see more people work >> remote and freelance/contract work will start to be the norm. >> >> My suggestion is lean how to create an LLC, create a blog, learn >> your niche and how to get traffic, especially targeted traffic that >> creates business leads. Or one can scour the job sites and look for >> remote in your area of expertise. >> >> I think the real opportunities moving forward will be in the area of >> freelancing. >> >> I think we are about to go through another change in how we work. >> Covid got us out of the office and now I think a lot of jobs are >> going to be short term and will be 1099 contract. >> >> There are a few things to learn about to survive as a 1099 >> contractor. It is not like working W2. You will need to pay for >> your own benefits, time off, training, equipment, and workspace. >> You will need to understand what you need to live on, what you are >> worth, and that not all of your time is income producing. For >> short-term projects, I figure 1/2 of my time is taken up by non >> income producing activates. >> >> I am interested in hearing from the list. >> >> -David Schwartz >> On Aug 15, 2022, at 9:31 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss >> wrote: >> Hi, >> About 24 years ago I worked for a guy who used to say "There is >> opportunity in chaos.". >> Given the chip shortage and other things taking place in the global >> space, present and future, I am wondering what do you see as >> opportunity in this present/coming chaos? >> FWIW I am an old guy who has started to realize that being forward >> thinking is VERY important. >> To keep things relevant I see that hardware is finally powerful >> enough that 10 year old hardware can run Linux rather well. If the >> economy really is going to crash it might be worth acquiring some >> old iron, SSD drives, and RAM for future projects. >> Your thoughts? >> Thanks!! >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss [1] [1] >> Links: >> ------ >> [1] >> > https://u2206659.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=SJEG7TF39YLaAIMD0HhsfC6E-2FcJXOs2D1VhGcvn2YkObFLMBOC3gmante55BOqf2F-2ByuZjZxeWAcK3DSlXP4Xtp4dQImX1G2Oq-2BQoN6woQ4-3DGQCz_o-2BjQxMsWfboH-2B-2BcY2qb3IYCoqvthnvff9ftZz0pNEJ2tF1jbVlVBtrlaPYq4av3GbSfa5IB-2BgC7AIuStRqkxSmG9LCziM-2BAFzPbP3QcGSaV544d1zAheLSAo-2FqkoVY6RO6zfNrayVpiJqk4guM9vumbD9pN3ql3atS1EsAHOglhHOjwctqEPNiEq3svPaDh1-2Fm5cNBrYCCD3qzHxCYjGmuV0-2BuiDkt-2BqhSFfowi9R5Q-3D >> [2] >> --------------------------------------------------- >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss [3] > > > > Links: > ------ > [1] > https://u2206659.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=SJEG7TF39YLaAIMD0HhsfC6E-2FcJXOs2D1VhGcvn2YkObFLMBOC3gmante55BOqf2F-2ByuZjZxeWAcK3DSlXP4Xtp4dQImX1G2Oq-2BQoN6woQ4-3DbGdw_o-2BjQxMsWfboH-2B-2BcY2qb3IYCoqvthnvff9ftZz0pNEJ2tF1jbVlVBtrlaPYq4av3GtXZzzvIc086yvugFSA3sawNt3cHuTEdqDiN8tSU2HAj0orBIPwyM4t5f4d-2Bcp-2BKtOXtBzXv4vJSoYGadJbEIBQIVANFwu77SxHVAQvKpBpNaV5xzR0ndIGaa18Dxi2by29oGKFsZiTpAA0-2Bqu9524OoJu8MDI3zJJ78iOIt9rWQ-3D > [2] > https://u2206659.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=SJEG7TF39YLaAIMD0HhsfEfrPu-2BwoxF2EgaoVUjLrD4SIixh4PoU6kd6M8VXMm-2BsffU656XNkDCv63wiIWKbf8Rs0ze2tE4uY6s9IkLocLUa8qgnhXaGaZsCeNK-2FYO5GoeIeLZjhMAwJw4PpLbAft9SO-2B0-2Fm-2BzU60DLxqkUhjg-2Ffbb6SsGERPan4HmzjxshaQh-2Fmyw79Q1yXXLuu8HBcVnDw-2FOA7j8LUuZZ8eFJCYSHUUy-2F5zOuafk4HEvItj1JWvtKqgOs3b1hSOpenEFsjpFS87Gt1oVWIKDTvBJ4nWdg3bG9NIgbUg0JkO0FZXvVnzYm12GqPzMrQExOghJlzlxO86N-2F4ykIbg36wnkXu8tHbCCsemx7ZZDoxTodsbNF9ev3lCFFdk3ai4lZwh-2BqgHi0H8kV9owLrCKMt9BRKSUBg-2FKRRyfSy4yc-2Fj5YSHOSq3sxTWIg6y7gcPdglpHqTWfR10fsBYUZkxitYJrsnKGNVtZofovpMZ45TjHzaYWWWdx0pS83ebEnMvZvRQX12iE-2FiyVbgk4cdrQbv4I-2B9W0wi22rVLI-2BdujuJUYiFvvM9-lrW_o-2BjQxMsWfboH-2B-2BcY2qb3IYCoqvthnvff9ftZz0pNEJ2tF1jbVlVBtrlaPYq4av3GtXZzzvIc086yvugFSA3sa9nbc0mfGulnpwAyM-2FCxHXHcFB6amQUVKbdh1fhnlbkSHR1ZugqtkQdiD1N8YzX-2F2JKDMKp92fZTvpg55JSzeTO-2FX3Uv8R3LxMTxmjYdLxa7IwljrX-2BvXBJ2HTQI7ECmszWyjllxWIjZFpiswExXAPg-3D > [3] > https://u2206659.ct.sendgrid.net/ls/click?upn=SJEG7TF39YLaAIMD0HhsfC6E-2FcJXOs2D1VhGcvn2YkObFLMBOC3gmante55BOqf2F-2ByuZjZxeWAcK3DSlXP4Xtp4dQImX1G2Oq-2BQoN6woQ4-3DQtyt_o-2BjQxMsWfboH-2B-2BcY2qb3IYCoqvthnvff9ftZz0pNEJ2tF1jbVlVBtrlaPYq4av3GtXZzzvIc086yvugFSA3saxxuCdLmnOKWzgIZv-2By6XLuPkXjXlATMDuYagr0KW5uEAF-2BhsJPbet5Opdm57jmQEciQYDQoP19h3va4udhnoD6gOMxL7cFCqTDtQrWmg48Z8dAtfC6BIMEKpRcq2pw7lZQsjZgw9VP1fn1jelYejkY-3D > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss