Looks to me like Keith and Tom were saying similar things. But of course, such is the ambiguousness of top posting. Regarding this thread's relationship to Linux, it's a stretch, but one could argue that there's no reason to learn Linux or any other STEM if one is going to be "outcompeted" (actually, lowballed by someone with a much lower cost of living) and not be able to get and keep a job for which he or she is trained. SteveT On Sat, 12 Nov 2016 08:31:28 -0700 Alan Pratt wrote: > I have to agree with Keith on the highlighted points Tom seems to > disagree with. And heavily disagree with Tom who has an obvious a > left-wing view of the world and quite jaded… > > But what does any of this have to do with Linux? > > On 11/11/16, 2:07 PM, "PLUG-discuss on behalf of Tom Roche" > Tom_Roche@pobox.com> wrote: > > > While I mostly agree with Keith's (and that of most of the other > folks) larger points on this thread (e.g., > 1. US STEM firms (esp in IT) are destroying themselves and US > STEM infrastructure by offshoring jobs and onshoring cheap young > labor. 2. US STEM firms benefit tremendously from the investment of > the US taxpayer and therefore should be forced to hire and train > citizens first. ), some of his points are too false to ignore: > > Keith Smith[1] (rearranged, heavily excerpted) > > 1) Our country gives money to almost every other country in the > > world. > > With the exception of Israel, US foreign aid is goods and > services--not money--and is almost entirely corporate welfare. US > food aid is the poster child: when people are starving in country X, > instead of "giving money" to the starving with which to buy food, or > even buying food where most closely available (sometimes in a > different part of X), the US buys food from US farmers at subsidized > prices, then pays US shippers to transport it (typically vast > distances, and at significant markup from prevailing rates), then > pays US personnel to distribute it or at least supervise (and pays > for their travel). Rightwingers should love that, but they're too > busy hating foreigners (esp dark ones) to notice that--much less that > US foreign aid is a tiny fraction of the Federal budget, and has been > for all of US history excepting the Marshall Plan. > > 2) Our men and women die while being the world police. > > US military contractors (and their pals in the US > corporate-funded media) are *demanding* to be the world's police, > because they get paid to do it! You may also not have noticed the > distinct *lack* of non-elite people--both Americans and > foreigners--demanding to have US military forces in the many places > to which US elites have committed them[2]. And spare me the tired > bullshit about "it's better to fight them there than to fight them > here": how many (e.g.) Somalis, Syrians, and Yemenis have *invaded* > the US recently? And what did the US do to the one nation (Saudi > Arabia) whose citizens *actually* attacked "the homeland" in 2001? We > sold them billions of dollars of weapons :-) This "world police" > shtick is a racket, and has been for over a century[3]. > > As an American I spent 4 years on active duty in the USMC. I > > was part of that global police force > > ... for which you got paid, and continue to get paid. Face it: > the US military is not an "all-volunteer" force, in any usual sense > of the word--to offer one's services without pay. When one > "volunteers" to help with some event at a local school, does one > expect a salary, and education benefits, and healthcare for life, and > a defined-benefit pension? No, but US veterans do. Another fact > rightwingers just won't face: the US military is composed of Federal > employees and (increasingly) contractors, just like the EPA, the IRS, > and all the other parts of the civil service that rightwingers love > to hate. > > 3) We have some of the best universities in the world and we > > export our knowledge by allowing foreigners to come to our > > country to study. > > > 4) 17 years ago I learned that the University of Arizona was > > charging foreign students 95% of the cost of their education. > > The tax payers paid the other 5%. > > You may not have noticed, but tuition, esp for foreign students, > has gone up since 1999 :-) The facts in 2016 are, we have a > higher-education bubble in the US, brought on by the largely-correct > belief that one must have a college degree to get a decent-paying > job. (It does not however follow that there are decent-paying jobs > for everyone with a college degree.) This bubble is currently being > sustained only by importing millions of foreign students, whose > tuition is multiples of that of in-state students. Esp for graduate > STEM programs: look at any Ass End of Nowhere U. (and even many > higher-quality and -reputation large public institutions) and you > will see very few citizen students. This allows PIs and departments > to fund themselves on the minimal grants available to programs that > really should have been terminated for lack of quality (esp the > for-profit ones) long ago. > > It was the American spirit that created all this. > > Not quite. Don't forget, e.g., the European spirit--and > taxpayers--that paid Tim Berners-Lee's tuition and funded his job @ > CERN[4]. (If I was a PHP coder, or anyone else dependent on the Web > ecosystem, I'd have a shrine to his memory in my home, and genuflect > in his general direction daily :-) HTH, Tom Roche > [1]: > http://lists.phxlinux.org/lurker/message/20161111.173600.4ac7e260.en.html > [2]: a year old, but still informative: > https://www.thenation.com/article/how-many-wars-is-the-us-really-fighting/ > [3]: from your fellow Marine Smedley Butler: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket [4]: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_World_Wide_Web#1980.E2.80.931991:_Invention_and_implementation_of_the_Web > --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss > mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, > unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss