I would have to second! ------------------------ Keith Smith --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Eric Cope wrote: > From: Eric Cope > Subject: Re: OT: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 9:43 PM > nice citation! > > On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 8:51 PM, > Austin William Wright > wrote: > > > Craig White wrote: > > > On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 21:20 -0700, keith smith wrote: > > > > > >> If you are referring to the courts that is one > thing the government > > >> needs to do. > > >> > > >> Water > > >> Sewer > > >> Trash pickup > > >> Streets > > >> Police > > >> Fire > > >> Standing Army > > >> and one or two other things. > > >> > > >> Everything else needs to be removed from the > government. > > >> > > >> Using the courts to resolve a dispute is > differently from the > > >> government providing for our business needs. > > >> > > >> Free enterprise.  Do you think as a small > business owner I am afforded > > >> any protection under the law.  Not happening. >  Only the big guys get > > >> help from the government. > > >> > > >> I really have to get a few things done so i will > sing off for now. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > In NH, we got our own water, sewage, and trash. Why is > government > > necessary for those things? Even roads maybe (though there > are bigger > > things to think about), many of the highways are tollways. > > > Keep in mind I'm for small government and a free > market.the problem is that free market has now proven to be > a disaster. The > > > current economic mess is a direct result of > deregulating things like the > > > banks, Wall Street, etc. While the John Galt logic > sounded pretty good, > > > it simply didn't work and the great Ayn Rand > disciple, Greenspan got it > > > all wrong. We are paying the consequences for this now > and will be > > > paying even more consequences as the next wave of home > and commercial > > > property foreclosures ramp up, unemployment starts to > climb again and > > > more and more people's unemployment benefits > expire. Free market is a > > > great concept that simply doesn't work because > corporate interests are > > > predatory and irresponsible. > > > > > > The acknowledgment that essential government services > listed above > > > justifies the role of government and you want to argue > that it should do > > > no more. There is much more government should be > doing...but they have > > > abrogated their responsibilities in things like > consumer protection. > > > > > > Government will always be a problem but no government > is a worse problem > > > considering the amount of people and the current trend > of business > > > practices. > > I would examine the "free market" again. We are > /not/ in a free market, > > and haven't even been close to one for a while. We > never deregulated > > anything, indeed, the pages of regulation haven't > decreased since Regan. > > Greenspan turned out to be one of the biggest > interventionists, only > > outdone by Bernanke. You can't blame the mess on > bankers, if they didn't > > make those decisions someone else would have, and the > outcome wouldn't > > have been any different (in other words, it is a symptom, > not a cause). > > The problem stems from many central banks including our own > Federal > > reserve cutting interest rates from 2001-2004 by > (essentially) > > "printing" money. Since the housing market was > one of the most regulated > > (that is to say, there were government-enforced lending > standards and > > intervention my Fannie and Freddie), so people spent that > new money on > > houses before anything else (Oil too, because energy is > closely tied to > > the market), drove prices up, created a misallocation of > capital > > disproportionate with consumer demand, and we crashed when > not enough > > people could humanly gather the money to buy a new house at > the price > > they were at. > > > > Too many people get mislead by the number on the money, > ignore the > > money, that isn't what an economy is about. It is about > exchange and > > production. It is impossible measure how much an economy > satisfies > > people's wants, some of their wants may not involve > exchange with other > > people (so-called autistic exchange, which cannot be > measured). Every > > dollar spent bailing out companies is a dollar that cannot > be used to > > make televisions cheaper, or is a dollar that cannot be > used to buy > > food. Every dollar borrowed by government is one that > cannot be loaned > > out to a private investor, and raises interest rates at > that. Every > > dollar printed by government is one that was not in turn > made with any > > productive effort valued by someone else, and raises prices > for the > > people who are honest, without getting any raise in their > income to > > compensate. If GM collapsed, who knows how many companies > would have > > wanted to buy their machinery to build electric cars > cheaper, or invent > > the next great mode of transportation. Just because GM > collapses, > > doesn't mean that the workers no longer are allowed to > work, nor does it > > mean that the capital has vanished into thin air. It all > still exists, > > to be re-allocated to a use /better/ and cheaper than cars > (or > > specifically better than GM cars, if purchased by another > car company), > > as judged by who who would value it the most (able to pay > the most). > > Recessions are created by debt and caused by a bad > structure of capital. > > We need to embrace failure, it lowers prices that allows us > to pay off > > debt and re-form the right kinds of capital that will > satisfy our wants > > more effectively then if we did not. > > > > This is why I oppose any and all science, art, think tank, > and > > infrastructure funding. People allocate what they have to > what they have > > (goods, which here includes renting their labor), to the > most urgent > > needs first. If the only way an oil pipeline can be built > is to force > > people to pay for it, then they are losing out on something > they desire > > more. So how does infrastructure come about then? > Conversion of capital. > > Money saved in a bank is effectively, for the purposes of > economics, the > > same as the infrastructure (capital) itself, but > time-delayed. (Interest > > rates play in, being the rate at which people value > something now over > > something in the future.) People pool their savings in a > bank, and the > > more people who save, the more they intend to defer their > consumption > > until later. Since we have differed consumption, interest > rates go down, > > and this money can be loaned out - to buy capital that will > be able to > > produce the things people will want in the future. This is > why Europe > > was able to advance so much more than the rest of the world > until the > > industrial age, and especially the Native Americans who had > /no/ pool of > > capital, because it had a far more modern banking system. > It is the > > detail of why the Soviet Union failed (no savings, no > capital). Only > > when the savings pool is more than the cost of the capital > can it be > > undertaken, otherwise it will be a malinvestment and better > spent on > > other projects. This is a very difficult thing to grasp, it > has taken me > > much studying to even be able to explain this, hopefully it > suffices. I > > also want to note, this is why manipulating interest rates > is a /very > > bad idea/, because it encourages capital growth, like more > houses or > > factories for instance, when people don't have the > savings to draw from > > once they are manufactured - that is to say, people > won't be able to > > exchange for the new capital at the time of their maturity > at the rate > > that was expected when development began. This is why a > bust follows an > > artificial boom, almost like clockwork throughout history > (though, the > > same type of bust can also be caused without a boom by > other things, > > there is no difference between a bust caused by too much > spending in > > energy and a bust caused by a broken oil pipeline that > forces people > > dependent on oil out of business). > > > > On topic, try a solar water heater. Solar anything. We > haven't used > > electric heating for the past two months and are saving > about $50/mo > > because of it. Take a look at what resources an economy > has, in the case > > of Arizona, there is have labor, some types of crops, > copper and other > > metals, and sun, and I know other things too. Phoenix > especially is > > funny because it is (I think) the first big city not built > next to > > water, usually you need transportation to be able to grow. > Anyways, look > > for things that use the resources around you. Things > powered by solar > > and simple electronic components (fasteners, wires and > cables perhaps) > > come to mind. > > > > Austin Wright. > > > > PS. If this is at all interesting consider reading /Man, > Economy, and > > State/. > > --------------------------------------------------- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > settings: > > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > -- > Eric Cope > http://cope-et-al.com > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > settings: > http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --------------------------------------------------- PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss