our founding fathers also owned slaves.  -jmz

On Sun, Aug 2, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Lisa Kachold<lisakachold@obnosis.com> wrote:
> Who cares, the founding fathers are dead.
>
> It's the living I care about; people can't continue to pretend that
> allowing each other to do things that KILL amount to "respect" or some
> basardized agrandized "American Way"!
>
> Washington, Jefferson, and my ancestor Mifflin (signed the Bill of
> Rights) were talking about race, religion and thought (including
> science).
>
> They spoke out clearly against things known to kill!  Sheesh!  What foolishness!
>
> On 8/2/09, keith smith <klsmith2020@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> Canada health care is not efficient.
>>
>> And why should someone have the authority to ell some else they cannot
>> smoke, drink, or eat cheese burgers.
>>
>> If our Founding Fathers read this they would scream.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------
>> Keith Smith
>>
>>
>> --- On Sun, 8/2/09, Lisa Kachold <lisakachold@obnosis.com> wrote:
>>
>>> From: Lisa Kachold <lisakachold@obnosis.com>
>>> Subject: Re: ****Re: guess what....
>>> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" <plug-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us>
>>> Date: Sunday, August 2, 2009, 2:35 PM
>>> One of the 2 former posts is typical
>>> "party diatribe"; you decide which!
>>>
>>> The irony of no health care in our economy is that unless
>>> you
>>> constantly replace people (who die, fail to make it in
>>> employment or
>>> become homeless)  [while also keeping the subset of
>>> "healthy"
>>> individuals completely separate] you win.
>>>
>>> The benefit of socialized health care includes research
>>> and
>>> statistics, eradication of diseases like STD's, TB and
>>> childhood
>>> illness, and control of the flu, and geratric survivial
>>> (which assists
>>> our children's children socially).  The system can
>>> support it, and in
>>> 20 years the benefits in advances in technology, industry
>>> and spcial
>>> stability are incredible.
>>>
>>> It's humane, and it's required to eradicate smoking, drug
>>> and alcohol
>>> abuse (often self medication for physical and emotional
>>> illness)
>>> alone.
>>>
>>> All systems in our society are inefficient - that doesn't
>>> mean we
>>> don't need IT systems for instance, it means we need
>>> EFFICIENCY
>>> (Canada as an example).
>>> My father would turn over in his grave, since he also
>>> wanted a free
>>> economy, but would agree that people are worth health
>>> care.
>>>
>>> Now, border control is another issue entirely!
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/2/09, Craig White <craigwhite@azapple.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > On Sun, 2009-08-02 at 19:16 -0700, Vaughn Treude
>>> wrote:
>>> >> Lisa Kachold wrote:
>>> >> > On 7/30/09, JD Austin <jd@twingeckos.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >> The 'other' model isn't working any
>>> better.  My wife works in an Urgent
>>> >> >> Care; tons of Canadians come here to get
>>> the health care they need.  I
>>> >> >> think
>>> >> >> the whole industry needs to be more
>>> competitive; most things in health
>>> >> >> care
>>> >> >> shouldn't cost what they do.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>
>>> >> > Inefficiency in preventative care,
>>> diagnostics, errors in surgery, the
>>> >> > truth is incredibly expensive.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > But just because Canadians come here for care
>>> doesn't mean it's not
>>> >> > working.
>>> >> >
>>> >> <rant>
>>> >> If by "working", you mean the majority of
>>> Canadians people accept it,
>>> >> and even think it's a good thing, I suppose it is.
>>> They're just very
>>> >> lucky they have a "safety valve", that is, a large
>>> semi-free country
>>> >> whose borders are within 100 miles of 90% of their
>>> population.
>>> >> Single-payer is, IMHO, the biggest piece of
>>> economic foolishness ever
>>> >> devised. Let's give an absolute monopoly to the
>>> most inefficient,
>>> >> corrupt organization ever invented by humans
>>> (government.) As for the
>>> >> notion that socialized medicine is cheaper, I
>>> don't believe it for a
>>> >> second. Governments can shift their costs to other
>>> agencies; the
>>> >> Pentagon does it all the time. I assume, for
>>> example, the cost of having
>>> >> "premiums" collected by the CRA doesn't get
>>> counted in the balance
>>> >> sheet. Not to mention the fact that a huge portion
>>> of the overhead costs
>>> >> of private insurers in the US is red tape imposed
>>> by government
>>> >> bureaucracies.
>>> >> Not that I'm necessarily endorsing the current
>>> system. There were a lot
>>> >> of good not-for-profit medical insurers in this
>>> country until Richard
>>> >> Nixon changed the tax laws, causing a massive
>>> takeover by greedy HMO's.
>>> >> I'd like to see a system of decentralized medical
>>> cooperatives with
>>> >> for-profit companies as a supplement.
>>> >> BTW, I don't blame the immigrants, but I do blame
>>> the lawyers. :-)
>>> >> </rant>
>>> >>
>>> >> No offense, just my two cents. :-)
>>> >> There, I feel so much better.
>>> >> Vaughn
>>> > ----
>>> > seeing as how the political discussions do not die
>>> off, I am going to
>>> > sound off here.
>>> >
>>> > The entire premise of the Canadian health care system
>>> was to provide a
>>> > single tier of medical coverage for all and no amount
>>> of wealth would
>>> > provide a better level of health care. You cannot
>>> devise a system that
>>> > is more fundamentally fair to everyone.
>>> >
>>> > The people who come here from Canada are doing
>>> elective surgeries either
>>> > not covered by the health care system in Canada or
>>> prioritized in a
>>> > manner that does not suit the person with money to pay
>>> elsewhere.
>>> >
>>> > The language that you use Vaughn is loaded and
>>> inaccurate...
>>> > - we are not a safety valve, we provide elective
>>> medical care to those
>>> > who want to pay and go elsewhere.
>>> >
>>> > - the issue of a monopolized health care run by the
>>> government happens
>>> > to be that which is practiced in all other western
>>> nations. We spend
>>> > more per capita on health care than any other
>>> industrialized nation and
>>> > yet approximately 25% of our citizens do not have
>>> coverage.
>>> >
>>> > - the insurance companies do worse managing the health
>>> care than
>>> > government could ever do. They practice murder by
>>> spreadsheet. They
>>> > invent rules for exclusions. Someone in this country
>>> WITH health
>>> > insurance goes bankrupt in this country every 30
>>> seconds because of
>>> > exclusions, deductibles, etc.
>>> >
>>> > - blaming the government red tape for the profits of
>>> insurers is absurd
>>> > to its core.
>>> >
>>> > An American citizen visiting Canada can get free
>>> health care if needed.
>>> >
>>> > Any solution short of single-payer will fail and we
>>> will be back here
>>> > again, with more people excluded from coverage by
>>> insurance companies,
>>> > more people bankrupted by illness only because the
>>> companies with
>>> > profits at stake...insurance companies and drug
>>> companies will spend
>>> > unreasonable amounts of money to influence public
>>> opinion and elected
>>> > candidates.
>>> >
>>> > Craig
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > This message has been scanned for viruses and
>>> > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>>> > believed to be clean.
>>> >
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>>>
>>> --
>>> http://linuxgazette.net/165/kachold.html
>>> (623)239-3392
>>> (503)754-4452 www.obnosis.com
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>
> --
> http://linuxgazette.net/165/kachold.html
> (623)239-3392
> (503)754-4452 www.obnosis.com
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