With the exception of labor law violations what you have outlined has to do with business practices. How can government improve these problems? ------------------------ Keith Smith --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Michael Butash wrote: > From: Michael Butash > Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 10:31 PM > Well, largely I agree with Joshua's > assessment, sounds like his > experience is much like mine... > > I moved to the Bay area in 99, worked tech there for 2 > years, moved back > when things imploded in 01.  Since being back versed > with tech skill and > corporate politics, I've only ever been able to describe > most business > in Arizona as bass-ackward and/or hot-air propelled.  > Largely I note > Arizona seems to encourage abuse of fair labor standards > act for > salaried employees, resulting in a lot of "sweatshop IT" > mentality in > corporations here.  Funny I heard mentioned godaddy > and 2wire, as they > tend to be some of the biggest offenders of running said > sweat shops. > Give your buddy 6 months at the Daddy to acclimate to them > and ask what > he thinks.  :)  > > When I did move back to AZ, I'd joined some professional > "networking" > groups like AZIPA that led to not much more than pedantic > bickering and > posturing, not much at all helpful for business or > technology > opportunities.  Ultimately I saw it splinter, > fracture, and a lot of > people simply lose interest because of it, including > myself.  From that > I found being an island unto yourself isn't always a bad > thing, simply > networking with people I met through work.  Only > recently have I > somewhat opened up to professional networking though > LinkedIn and user > groups like this one, but really just to keep touch with > associates and > clients of mine.  I'm still gun shy on the rest... > > Since being back in AZ, I've worked for a lot of IT shops > and been > exposed to a lot of people shifting between jobs, finding > that more or > less most corporate politics surrounding IT are the same, > and not > typically good.  I worked 3 years at GoDaddy prior and > through massive > growth, while one of my best work experiences (building > cool/expensive > stuff), it was also one of the worst (meat grinder > stressful workplace, > implosive politics).  GD and frankly a lot of > companies I've been > exposed to are more alike than not, typically because of > clueless upper > management and general lack of ethics, but somehow forge > along despite > themselves.  Closest analogy I can equated it to > universally is "the > blind leading the blind", where self-serving politics, > combined with > poor technological leadership, and now volatile economics > eventually > dictate perspective reasoning of how things work.  Bad > things tend to > result, and often... > > The difference between working in the Bay Area and in > Arizona is stark. > Generally I found a lot better talent there, with a > stronger likeliness > to embrace technology, and be passionate about their > work.  Here there's > just a lot of people graduating DeVry, UoP, WIU, and other > "schools" > cranking out mediocre certified/degreed cannon-fodder for > the local IT > shops, trying to get paid by the IT dream job.  It's > almost scary > walking into new customer businesses consulting anymore, > pretty safe to > assume someone knows nothing than anything about the tech > they support. > While I did have this too in the Bay Area, the clueless > admin syndrome > is a heck of a lot more prevalent here.  Work ethics > tend to be crappier > too.  I dunno, something in the water perhaps... > > Look around at the sheer number of call centers for > businesses out of > state we have here, and that should tell you > something.  A lot of > low-pay, mediocre jobs, and a career path to become a > cattle herder of > these call centers, maybe even move into middle management > if you're > lucky.  Businesses like GoDaddy, 2wire, CableOne, Cox, > ETelecare, etc > simply rotate people in and out like underwear, but they're > the armpits > that fund a lot of the IT business around town as well, as > someone's got > to support all the infrastructure to take those > calls.  Godaddy's call > centers are slightly different because they actually MAKE > them money, so > they tend to commission merit pay and lavish gifts readily > upon them to > keep everyone happy, but it's still at the root just > another sweatshop > call center.  Other call centers are much less > forgiving...  > > Supporting IT shops around call centers tends to be a > double-edged > sword, especially when the call center slave mentality > pervades into the > how companies deal with or even drive IT folk.  Even > non-call-centers > seem to act this way locally more commonly than not, just > because they > can, and it's the atmosphere people are becoming acclimated > to.  As > people migrate jobs, I think ultimately this pervasive > mentality results > in excessive overwork and general dissatisfaction, causing > a > trickle-down effect into other work places. > > These disinterested/jaded/overworked/underpaid workers now > head out into > other IT shops to maintain infrastructure over their head > and > undermanned, meaning things degrade eventually even if once > deployed > properly.  I'm not at all certain if this is just a > local thing, or the > new national standard at work, but it seems much more > pervasive here > than certain other localities I work with.  > Professional ethics are hard > to find these days in general with hard times indeed.  > Anyone else of > hiring capacity notice try hiring *good* people these > days?  Pretty > difficult if you ask me. > > Overall, working in the tech field here for the past 8 > years in a more > senior capacity, I'm often uncertain I want to remain in AZ > long-term. > As I get older, my flame to set upon the world diminishes, > I'll probably > just wander until I feel comfortable for a bit.  I > love AZ, but I'm > fairly disparaged by the business opportunities here after > all these > years... > > So enough hot-air of my own, take it as you will, but > that's my take on > things.  Feel free to disagree.  :) > > Good discussion indeed, interesting to hear other's > opinions on the > matter. > > -mb > > > On Sat, 2009-08-01 at 19:08 -0700, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith smith > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think what is really missing from this equation > is mentoring and training. > > > >   what I would like to see is some real > support from AZ government to > > help make tech companies feel welcome here.  This > means: > > > >   1) making the valley a good place not > only to build a company but to > > build a *career*.  this means buy in from both > sides of the equation. > > I would like to see a bit more address at lower > capital levels, but > > that may prove to be difficult.  It seems that > most existing concepts > > are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you > build a factory > > in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers, > but technology > > requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving > job market.  The > > needs are quite different.  The biggest issue > with starting a company > > out here is finding people.  Where are all the > people?  in CA. > > because it has a good job market.  If we can > outsource to India, we > > sure as hell can outsource to Arizona. > > > >   2) setting up low cost legal > structure and as you say mentoring to > > really help stimulate technology development.  > We've seen (at least > > nominal) efforts in the past.  Why did they > fail?  This means real and > > adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production > and market.  A > > small investment in this area will yield returns in > tax base and > > property value by a factor of hundreds.  Arizona > has the potential to > > pick up a lot of this commercial activity because > California is > > currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state > to build your > > business.  If AZ fails to see the opportunity > here, we will lose out > > big time.  Currently the budget proceedings are > still in gridlock. > > > >   the mayor of Phoenix seems to have > the right idea, he was suggesting > > recently a green technology center near Phx > center.  I think thats the > > direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz > > > > > > > > I like the idea that folks are getting together > to network.  This is a really cool idea.  Even for > non-technical stuff like finding out how people deal with > customers, contracting, book-keeping, ETC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ > > > Keith Smith > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > > > > > >> From: Joshua Zeidner > > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to > do in PHX > > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM > > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM, > > >> Alan Dayley > > >> wrote: > > >> > Joshua, > > >> > > > >> > I put all your replies together in one > long document > > >> and reread them. > > >> > I am still confused a bit.  > Enlightenment via email > > >> rarely occurs. > > >> > However, I really want to understand > your position in > > >> this discussion. > > >> >  Let me summarize what I understand > from your > > >> replies. > > >> > > > >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your > comments]--- > > >> > > > >> > - There is a small group or groups of > people who keep > > >> spinning off > > >> > communities using tired marketing > techniques.  This > > >> results in blogs > > >> > but not true communities. > > >> > > > >> > - Some of these people cannot deal with > existing > > >> structure and the > > >> > efforts of the past. > > >> > > > >> > - These weak attempts do not articulate > goals or > > >> purpose well, if at all. > > >> > > > >> > - We must honestly look at criticism to > learn and > > >> improve. > > >> > > > >> > - These weak people need to address the > efforts of the > > >> past and > > >> > provide suggestions on how they can be > improved upon. > > >> > > > >> > - Getting political support will provide > legitimacy to > > >> their efforts. > > >> > > > >> > - Phoenix will attract technology > businesses because > > >> of the relative > > >> > low cost and this will help improve > things. > > >> > > > >> > - You have first hand experiences of > weak, marketing > > >> fronted, > > >> > community building efforts. > > >> > > > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand ideas > but get > > >> nowhere with them > > >> > because they are not real businesses. > > >> > > > >> > - People at a co-working location or > coffee shop will > > >> not help you > > >> > with your business unless you pay them. > > >> > > > >> > - Most people at co-working started > their one person > > >> business after > > >> > being laid-off and are not serious about > it.  They > > >> are really just > > >> > looking for the next full time > gig.  This will get in > > >> your way if you > > >> > have real business work to do. > > >> > > > >> > - We must look truthfully at this issue > if we are to > > >> make progress. > > >> > > > >> > - There are no serious incubators and > entrepreneurial > > >> meetups in > > >> > Phoenix.  No announcements on VC > funding of companies > > >> so it's not > > >> > really entrepreneurial growth. > > >> > > > >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your > comments]--- > > >> > > > >> > I see validity in every one of these > comments.  I > > >> also think many of > > >> > them can be balanced by the other point > of view.  I > > >> still have > > >> > questions, if I may ask, before I state > too much of my > > >> own thinking. > > >> > I want to learn more about your > thinking. > > >> > > > >> > 1. What does "deal with existing > structure" mean? > > >>  This confuses me, > > >> > not know what structure you are talking > about. > > >> > > >>   Many user groups have been > formed and continue to > > >> exist... how is > > >> different?  other than > its led by > > >> person Y?  I mean dealing > > >> with some of these groups I feel like Im back > to age 8 > > >> trying to gain > > >> admittance into the neighborhood > treehouse.  Perhaps I > > >> should spend > > >> more time drinking beer with these > people?  Seeing the > > >> same small > > >> group churning out 'communities' is at first > funny, then > > >> annoying.  I > > >> just see a real lack of serious intent, and > unless that is > > >> noted > > >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad.  > I really dont > > >> think Im being > > >> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing > out some valid > > >> observations. > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you > referring?  I > > >> want to > > >> > understand the size and nature of > efforts to creating > > >> a community that > > >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did > not work as > > >> planned. > > >> > > >>   I remember when I first came > to AZ that there was an > > >> tech > > >> incubator...  what happened to it?  > Which > > >> political agents currently > > >> support technology development in the > valley?  what do > > >> they think > > >> about your org?  these things are pretty > basic... > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 3. What political support is > needed?  You mean > > >> government funding of > > >> > events or startups or just verbal > support or what? > > >> > > >>   I wouldn't expect funding, > but it would be good to > > >> see some > > >> political buy in.  Lack of just supports > my opinions, > > >> that its really > > >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor > organization. > > >> Without any good > > >> signposts, all this will produce are people > who get jaded > > >> and > > >> disaffected with regards to this > location.  If you had > > >> something > > >> together I doubt that a good politician would > turn you > > >> down. > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for > someone who is > > >> laid-off to have > > >> > grand ideas, talk about them and they > never come to > > >> be? > > >> > > >>   Its not.  As I said, I > don't find any of these > > >> things highly > > >> offensive- but like you I am free to express > myself. > > >> Sorry if its not > > >> filled with abundant exaltations. > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people > might help each > > >> other in business > > >> > efforts?  Isn't strengthening and > creating such a > > >> culture a good idea > > >> > or should such a goal not be pursued > because it is not > > >> practically > > >> > possible? > > >> > > >>   sure.  good thread > btw.  -jmz > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Alan > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua > Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >> another great one: > > >> >> > > >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are > the incubators, > > >> the "bootstrap" > > >> >> seminars, the serious > entrepreneurial meetups in > > >> Phoenix??? (crickets > > >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't > happening as a > > >> serious place where > > >> >> serious people are doing serious > things. No one > > >> wants it badly enough > > >> >> here. This paper should be having at > least one > > >> article a week on a new > > >> >> startup and the VC firm who funded > it. > > >> Helloooo????? is anybody out > > >> >> there...." > > >> >> > > >> >> a better way to phrase this: we need > to stop > > >> pretending these > > >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by > local > > >> self-employed marketing experts > > >> >> are sufficient.  They are > not.  We should be > > >> asking the hard > > >> >> questions, not playing games. > > >> >> > > >> >> -jmz > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, > Joshua > > >> Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>  another point, honestly > reading through some > > >> of the criticisms on > > >> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe > dwelling creed > > >> myself, I'd have to say > > >> >>> that many of those points are > accurate.  I've > > >> heard lots of > > >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big ideas > around here who > > >> never get anywhere with > > >> >>> them.  Sorry, but a word > press template > > >> doesn't make you an > > >> >>> entrepreneur. > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  "These are the same people > you see at > > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any > > >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are > not > > >> entrepreneurs they are attention > > >> >>> (inappropriate term)." > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  "Many of the Co-Worker > location founders > > >> tout other people to > > >> >>> collaborate with and who can > "compensate for > > >> your deficiencies". Do > > >> >>> you really believe someone that > you are not > > >> paying as an employee is > > >> >>> going to somehow compensate for > your > > >> deficiencies and make your > > >> >>> business better? That kind of > help doesn't > > >> come without a price." > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  oh so true... > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  "You are more likely to > get a bunch of > > >> people chatting to you over > > >> >>> your "work" so you wont be > concentrating as > > >> you should to focus on > > >> >>> your business. Most of these > people started > > >> businesses after being > > >> >>> laid off. They are searching for > a new job and > > >> they aren't really > > >> >>> serious about their "businesses" > so how do you > > >> expect them to give you > > >> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are > these the kind > > >> of people you need to > > >> >>> compensate for your > deficiencies? A bunch of > > >> people half-as running > > >> >>> their "business" while searching > for a real > > >> job and bothering you with > > >> >>> their expertise that got them > laid off in the > > >> first place." > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  oh so so true... > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  I would be willing to bet > the commenter > > >> above is an tried and true > > >> >>> successful entrepreneur.  > Perhaps the reason > > >> I am so skeptical is > > >> >>> because I know these kind of > people so well. > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  sorry I really wish I > could be more > > >> supportive... but :  truth is > > >> >>> the foundation of progress. > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  -jmz > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, > Joshua > > >> Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>>  Alan, > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>>    Wish I had time > to respond to all > > >> these points right now, not sure > > >> >>>> you read me the way I would > prefer > > >> however.  Its not so grave a > > >> >>>> warning, just getting the > word out on my > > >> first hand experiences.  Im > > >> >>>> just one of many- but > hopefully an > > >> impartial observer and someone > > >> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ. > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>>  all the best, jmz > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 > PM, Alan > > >> Dayley > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>>> Josh, > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> I feel warned.  And > I don't > > >> understand the reason for such a strong > warning. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> There are people in > every industry, > > >> government or community who wish > > >> >>>>> to fleece their > "community" for their > > >> own profit instead of mutual > > >> >>>>> benefit.  The trick > is to find the > > >> positive people and ignore the > > >> >>>>> rest.  Apply the > same filter with > > >> every event, group or blogger in the > > >> >>>>> lists and links I > provided.  I don't > > >> expect bloggers or techies to be > > >> >>>>> any different, as if > being techie > > >> makes one a saint. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Some of those bloggers > are purely > > >> commercial or completely neglected, > > >> >>>>> I'm sure.  Some of > the groups or > > >> events or sites listed are lousy, > > >> >>>>> boring or poor marketing > excuses to > > >> sell something.  Some are not out > > >> >>>>> to create community but > to build a > > >> "kingdom" for their own benefit. > > >> >>>>> They are the duds. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Let's look at a few > positives: > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank > Manifesto on > > >> their home page at > > >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com.  That looks like > > >> a great articulation of their > > >> >>>>> goals and purpose.  > Ones I strongly > > >> support! > > >> >>>>> -- Read how the > manifesto came to be > > >> on Derek's blog at > > >> >>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/ > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted > or is hosting: > > >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long > conference on > > >> developing for phones like > > >> >>>>> iPhone or Android > > >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 > hour Saturday > > >> event for kids 5-15 to learn > > >> >>>>> programming concepts > > >> >>>>> -- Wordpress training > classes for > > >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs > > >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day > long > > >> conference on job searching and > entreprenuership > > >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a > day long > > >> conference on software development > > >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch > ted.com videos > > >> and discuss them > > >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night > of open mic > > >> music and entertainment > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and > > >> nearly > > >> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix > campus with > > >> developers talking about code or > > >> >>>>> making code.  Free > lunch of pizza and > > >> sub sandwiches was provided too. > > >> >>>>>  Put together by > volunteers. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - If you're into > Microsoft based > > >> development tech, the people who > > >> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at > > >> >>>>> venues like the Orphium > Theater and at > > >> no cost to attendees.  Fine, > > >> >>>>> it's marketing for MS > but it's put on > > >> by volunteers here in the valley > > >> >>>>> and a great way for > people to learn > > >> about things that improve their > > >> >>>>> career skills. > > >> >>>>> (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx) > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On > Rails group has > > >> monthly meetings with around 30 > > >> >>>>> regularly in > attendance. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The Java group is also > well attended > > >> every month. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put on > > >> by > > >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost > (donation > > >> requested) to attendees.  Had about 350 > > >> >>>>> people attend last year > (if I recall) > > >> for two days of conference. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in > > >> November > > >> >>>>> for the forth > year.  This one costs > > >> $100+ but should be as well > > >> >>>>> attended as last year > with 200+ > > >> people.  Funded and organized in part > > >> >>>>> by a local venture > capital group. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago > with > > >> a > > >> >>>>> little over 100 in > attendance and has > > >> grown to fill the 600 seat > > >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center > for the Arts > > >> back in June.  The connections > > >> >>>>> made there live well > past the event. > > >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council > member and the > > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last > > >> >>>>> time, though he was a > bit silly trying > > >> to be Tempe exclusive.  That > > >> >>>>> seems to be at least > verbal political > > >> support. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on > FS/OSS is > > >> being planned for October and > > >> >>>>> should be better than > last year. (Go > > >> Hans and team!) > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> I'm not going to go on, > though I could > > >> point out several purely social > > >> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west > > >> valley > > >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley > Thursday Morning > > >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch, > > >> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet > and Eat and > > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch > > >> >>>>> presentations every > Wednesday. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Now, having said all of > that "giddy > > >> blind optimism," I'd like to > > >> >>>>> understand how the above > does not > > >> address the efforts of the past or > > >> >>>>> provide improvement over > past efforts. > > >>  What are the real needs of the > > >> >>>>> community, if not some > of the above? > > >>  What would you suggest?  How can > > >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it? > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Alan > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at > 1:34 PM, > > >> Joshua Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>>>>  Alan, > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>    while I > appreciate your post, > > >> and anyone who is making a sincere > > >> >>>>>> effort to build > community in > > >> Phoenix... be warned.  There are some > > >> >>>>>> small groups who > periodically > > >> spawn off new 'communities' every month > > >> >>>>>> or so.  Look > closely and you see > > >> the same few people with reused > > >> >>>>>> marketing > recipes.  Lots of blog > > >> and not too much community I'm > > >> >>>>>> afraid.  Their > efforts amount to > > >> some simple branding and putting up a > > >> >>>>>> blog.  While > these things are not > > >> really particularily offensive to > > >> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat > detract from > > >> interest in the real needs of the > > >> >>>>>> community > here.  Some of these > > >> people are just outright idiotic and > > >> >>>>>> cannot deal with > existing > > >> structure and refuse to accept the history > > >> >>>>>> of efforts in the > past.  They > > >> lack any articulation of their goals and > > >> >>>>>> purpose.  Often > times they have > > >> trouble organizing even small groups > > >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3.  > Dont forget we've had > > >> a tech incubator here.  Lets not > > >> >>>>>> smack down sincere > criticism in > > >> favor of giddy blind optimism, > > >> >>>>>> remember you can't > improve without > > >> criticism.  I would take these > > >> >>>>>> people much more > seriously if they > > >> addressed the efforts of the past > > >> >>>>>> and perhaps > suggested how they are > > >> going to improve on them, or > > >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate > what has changed > > >> that will make them a success. > > >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real > political > > >> support would gain some legitimacy. > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>    on the > positive side, I think > > >> Phoenix will attract a lot of > > >> >>>>>> technology business > due to its > > >> relative low cost and no doubt you will > > >> >>>>>> start to see > community > > >> infrastructure grow.  We are seeing some > real > > >> >>>>>> urban development > happening in Phx > > >> metro which has me very excited.  I > > >> >>>>>> think when the > macroeconomic > > >> problems are sorted out we will see > > >> >>>>>> downtown Phx > bloom.  Im hoping > > >> that the average Arizonan gets involved > > >> >>>>>> in the political > process and make > > >> sure that the corruption stays out > > >> >>>>>> of city and state > politics. > > >>  Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot > of > > >> >>>>>> positive development > trends in Phx > > >> metro. > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>  -jmz > > >> >>>>> > > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > > >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing > list - 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