I do! ------------------------ Keith Smith --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > From: Joshua Zeidner > Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 8:13 PM >   and who enforces your > contracts, Keith? > >   -jmz > > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:12 PM, keith smith > wrote: > > > > > > Only problem is you have government in business. > > > > ------------------------ > > Keith Smith > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Lyle Tuttle > wrote: > > > >> From: Lyle Tuttle > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in > PHX > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 7:58 PM > >> > >> > >> The city of Surprise has moved into a new > >> city hall complex, > >> and are turning the old offices / building into a > >> "start-up" or > >> incubator for new or emerging businesses. > >> > >> > >> lyle tuttle > >> > >> > >> At 07:50 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote: > >> > >> On Sat, Aug 1, > >> 2009 at 6:50 PM, > >> keith smith > wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > I think what is really missing from this > equation is > >> mentoring and > >> training. > >> > >> > >>   what I would like to see is some real support > from > >> AZ government > >> to > >> > >> help make tech companies feel welcome here.  > This > >> means: > >> > >> > >>   1) making the valley a good place not only to > build > >> a company but > >> to > >> > >> build a *career*.  this means buy in from both > sides > >> of the > >> equation. > >> > >> I would like to see a bit more address at lower > capital > >> levels, but > >> > >> that may prove to be difficult.  It seems that > most > >> existing > >> concepts > >> > >> are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where > you build > >> a factory > >> > >> in a place with low taxes and hire low wage > workers, but > >> technology > >> > >> requires high wage workers who demand a good > thriving job > >> market. > >> The > >> > >> needs are quite different.  The biggest issue > with > >> starting a > >> company > >> > >> out here is finding people.  Where are all the > >> people?  in > >> CA. > >> > >> because it has a good job market.  If we can > outsource > >> to India, > >> we > >> > >> sure as hell can outsource to Arizona. > >> > >> > >>   2) setting up low cost legal structure and as > you > >> say mentoring > >> to > >> > >> really help stimulate technology development. > >> We've seen (at > >> least > >> > >> nominal) efforts in the past.  Why did they > >> fail?  This means > >> real and > >> > >> adequate assistance in bringing concepts to > production and > >> market. > >> A > >> > >> small investment in this area will yield returns > in tax > >> base and > >> > >> property value by a factor of hundreds.  Arizona > has > >> the potential > >> to > >> > >> pick up a lot of this commercial activity because > >> California is > >> > >> currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare > state to > >> build your > >> > >> business.  If AZ fails to see the opportunity > here, we > >> will lose > >> out > >> > >> big time.  Currently the budget proceedings are > still > >> in > >> gridlock. > >> > >> > >>   the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right > idea, > >> he was > >> suggesting > >> > >> recently a green technology center near Phx > center.  I > >> think thats > >> the > >> > >> direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz > >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > I like the idea that folks are getting > together to > >> network. > >> This is a really cool idea.  Even for > non-technical > >> stuff like > >> finding out how people deal with customers, > contracting, > >> book-keeping, > >> ETC. > >> > >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------ > >> > >> > Keith Smith > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > >> >> From: Joshua Zeidner > >> > >> >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff > to do in > >> PHX > >> > >> >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > >> > >> > >> >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM > >> > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM, > >> > >> >> Alan Dayley > >> > >> >> wrote: > >> > >> >> > Joshua, > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > I put all your replies together in > one long > >> document > >> > >> >> and reread them. > >> > >> >> > I am still confused a bit. > >> Enlightenment via > >> email > >> > >> >> rarely occurs. > >> > >> >> > However, I really want to understand > your > >> position in > >> > >> >> this discussion. > >> > >> >> >  Let me summarize what I understand > from > >> your > >> > >> >> replies. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your > >> comments]--- > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - There is a small group or groups > of people > >> who keep > >> > >> >> spinning off > >> > >> >> > communities using tired marketing > >> techniques. > >> This > >> > >> >> results in blogs > >> > >> >> > but not true communities. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - Some of these people cannot deal > with > >> existing > >> > >> >> structure and the > >> > >> >> > efforts of the past. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - These weak attempts do not > articulate goals > >> or > >> > >> >> purpose well, if at all. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - We must honestly look at criticism > to learn > >> and > >> > >> >> improve. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - These weak people need to address > the > >> efforts of the > >> > >> >> past and > >> > >> >> > provide suggestions on how they can > be > >> improved upon. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - Getting political support will > provide > >> legitimacy to > >> > >> >> their efforts. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - Phoenix will attract technology > businesses > >> because > >> > >> >> of the relative > >> > >> >> > low cost and this will help improve > things. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - You have first hand experiences of > weak, > >> marketing > >> > >> >> fronted, > >> > >> >> > community building efforts. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand > >> ideas but get > >> > >> >> nowhere with them > >> > >> >> > because they are not real > businesses. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - People at a co-working location or > coffee > >> shop will > >> > >> >> not help you > >> > >> >> > with your business unless you pay > them. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - Most people at co-working started > their one > >> person > >> > >> >> business after > >> > >> >> > being laid-off and are not serious > about > >> it. > >> They > >> > >> >> are really just > >> > >> >> > looking for the next full time gig. > >> This will get > >> in > >> > >> >> your way if you > >> > >> >> > have real business work to do. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - We must look truthfully at this > issue if we > >> are to > >> > >> >> make progress. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > - There are no serious incubators > and > >> entrepreneurial > >> > >> >> meetups in > >> > >> >> > Phoenix.  No announcements on VC > funding > >> of > >> companies > >> > >> >> so it's not > >> > >> >> > really entrepreneurial growth. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your > comments]--- > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > I see validity in every one of > these > >> comments.  I > >> > >> >> also think many of > >> > >> >> > them can be balanced by the other > point of > >> view. > >> I > >> > >> >> still have > >> > >> >> > questions, if I may ask, before I > state too > >> much of my > >> > >> >> own thinking. > >> > >> >> > I want to learn more about your > thinking. > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > 1. What does "deal with existing > >> structure" > >> mean? > >> > >> >>  This confuses me, > >> > >> >> > not know what structure you are > talking > >> about. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >>   Many user groups have been formed > and > >> continue > >> to > >> > >> >> exist... how is > >> > >> >> different?  other than > its led > >> by > >> > >> >> person Y?  I mean dealing > >> > >> >> with some of these groups I feel like Im > back to > >> age 8 > >> > >> >> trying to gain > >> > >> >> admittance into the neighborhood > treehouse. > >> Perhaps I > >> > >> >> should spend > >> > >> >> more time drinking beer with these > people? > >> Seeing the > >> > >> >> same small > >> > >> >> group churning out 'communities' is at > >> first funny, then > >> > >> >> annoying.  I > >> > >> >> just see a real lack of serious intent, > and unless > >> that is > >> > >> >> noted > >> > >> >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad.  > I > >> really dont > >> > >> >> think Im being > >> > >> >> destructive or malicious here, Im > pointing out > >> some valid > >> > >> >> observations. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are > you > >> referring? > >> I > >> > >> >> want to > >> > >> >> > understand the size and nature of > efforts to > >> creating > >> > >> >> a community that > >> > >> >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps > did not > >> work as > >> > >> >> planned. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >>   I remember when I first came to AZ > >> that there was > >> an > >> > >> >> tech > >> > >> >> incubator...  what happened to it? > >> Which > >> > >> >> political agents currently > >> > >> >> support technology development in the > >> valley?  what do > >> > >> >> they think > >> > >> >> about your org?  these things are > pretty > >> basic... > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > 3. What political support is > needed? > >> You mean > >> > >> >> government funding of > >> > >> >> > events or startups or just verbal > support or > >> what? > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >>   I wouldn't expect funding, but it > >> would be good > >> to > >> > >> >> see some > >> > >> >> political buy in.  Lack of just supports > my > >> opinions, > >> > >> >> that its really > >> > >> >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor > organization. > >> > >> >> Without any good > >> > >> >> signposts, all this will produce are > people who > >> get jaded > >> > >> >> and > >> > >> >> disaffected with regards to this > location. > >> If you had > >> > >> >> something > >> > >> >> together I doubt that a good politician > would turn > >> you > >> > >> >> down. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for > someone > >> who is > >> > >> >> laid-off to have > >> > >> >> > grand ideas, talk about them and > they never > >> come to > >> > >> >> be? > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >>   Its not.  As I said, I don't > >> find any of > >> these > >> > >> >> things highly > >> > >> >> offensive- but like you I am free to > express > >> myself. > >> > >> >> Sorry if its not > >> > >> >> filled with abundant exaltations. > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people > might > >> help each > >> > >> >> other in business > >> > >> >> > efforts?  Isn't strengthening and > >> creating such a > >> > >> >> culture a good idea > >> > >> >> > or should such a goal not be pursued > because > >> it is not > >> > >> >> practically > >> > >> >> > possible? > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >>   sure.  good thread btw. > >> -jmz > >> > >> >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > Alan > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, > Joshua > >> Zeidner > >> > >> >> wrote: > >> > >> >> >> another great one: > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where > are > >> the > >> incubators, > >> > >> >> the "bootstrap" > >> > >> >> >> seminars, the serious > entrepreneurial > >> meetups in > >> > >> >> Phoenix??? (crickets > >> > >> >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't > >> happening as a > >> > >> >> serious place where > >> > >> >> >> serious people are doing serious > things. > >> No one > >> > >> >> wants it badly enough > >> > >> >> >> here. This paper should be > having at > >> least one > >> > >> >> article a week on a new > >> > >> >> >> startup and the VC firm who > funded it. > >> > >> >> Helloooo????? is anybody out > >> > >> >> >> there...." > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> a better way to phrase this: we > need to > >> stop > >> > >> >> pretending these > >> > >> >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by > local > >> > >> >> self-employed marketing experts > >> > >> >> >> are sufficient.  They are not. > >> We should > >> be > >> > >> >> asking the hard > >> > >> >> >> questions, not playing games. > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> -jmz > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, > Joshua > >> > >> >> Zeidner > >> > >> >> wrote: > >> > >> >> >>>  another point, honestly > reading > >> through > >> some > >> > >> >> of the criticisms on > >> > >> >> >>> azcentral and being of the > cafe > >> dwelling creed > >> > >> >> myself, I'd have to say > >> > >> >> >>> that many of those points > are > >> accurate. > >> I've > >> > >> >> heard lots of > >> > >> >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big > >> ideas around here who > >> > >> >> never get anywhere with > >> > >> >> >>> them.  Sorry, but a word > press > >> template > >> > >> >> doesn't make you an > >> > >> >> >>> entrepreneur. > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >>>  "These are the same > people > >> you see > >> at > >> > >> >> Starbucks, Boarders or any > >> > >> >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they > are not > >> > >> >> entrepreneurs they are attention > >> > >> >> >>> (inappropriate term)." > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >>>  "Many of the Co-Worker > >> location > >> founders > >> > >> >> tout other people to > >> > >> >> >>> collaborate with and who > can > >> "compensate > >> for > >> > >> >> your deficiencies". Do > >> > >> >> >>> you really believe someone > that you > >> are not > >> > >> >> paying as an employee is > >> > >> >> >>> going to somehow compensate > for your > >> > >> >> deficiencies and make your > >> > >> >> >>> business better? That kind > of help > >> doesn't > >> > >> >> come without a price." > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >>>  oh so true... > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >>>  "You are more likely to > >> get a bunch > >> of > >> > >> >> people chatting to you over > >> > >> >> >>> your "work" so you wont be > >> concentrating > >> as > >> > >> >> you should to focus on > >> > >> >> >>> your business. Most of these > people > >> started > >> > >> >> businesses after being > >> > >> >> >>> laid off. They are searching > for a > >> new job and > >> > >> >> they aren't really > >> > >> >> >>> serious about their > >> "businesses" so how > >> do you > >> > >> >> expect them to give you > >> > >> >> >>> valuable, serious advice. > Are these > >> the kind > >> > >> >> of people you need to > >> > >> >> >>> compensate for your > deficiencies? A > >> bunch of > >> > >> >> people half-as running > >> > >> >> >>> their "business" while > >> searching for a > >> real > >> > >> >> job and bothering you with > >> > >> >> >>> their expertise that got > them laid > >> off in the > >> > >> >> first place." > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >>>  oh so so true... > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >>>  I would be willing to bet > the > >> commenter > >> > >> >> above is an tried and true > >> > >> >> >>> successful entrepreneur. > >> Perhaps the > >> reason > >> > >> >> I am so skeptical is > >> > >> >> >>> because I know these kind of > people > >> so well. > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >>>  sorry I really wish I > could be > >> more > >> > >> >> supportive... but :  truth is > >> > >> >> >>> the foundation of progress. > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >>>  -jmz > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 > PM, > >> Joshua > >> > >> >> Zeidner > >> > >> >> wrote: > >> > >> >> >>>>  Alan, > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>    Wish I had time > >> to respond to > >> all > >> > >> >> these points right now, not sure > >> > >> >> >>>> you read me the way I > would > >> prefer > >> > >> >> however.  Its not so grave a > >> > >> >> >>>> warning, just getting > the word > >> out on my > >> > >> >> first hand experiences.  Im > >> > >> >> >>>> just one of many- but > hopefully > >> an > >> > >> >> impartial observer and someone > >> > >> >> >>>> genuinely concerned for > AZ. > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>  all the best, jmz > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at > 3:12 PM, > >> Alan > >> > >> >> Dayley > >> > >> >> wrote: > >> > >> >> >>>>> Josh, > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> I feel warned.  And > I > >> don't > >> > >> >> understand the reason for such a strong > warning. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> There are people in > every > >> industry, > >> > >> >> government or community who wish > >> > >> >> >>>>> to fleece their > >> "community" for > >> their > >> > >> >> own profit instead of mutual > >> > >> >> >>>>> benefit.  The trick > is > >> to find > >> the > >> > >> >> positive people and ignore the > >> > >> >> >>>>> rest.  Apply the > same > >> filter with > >> > >> >> every event, group or blogger in the > >> > >> >> >>>>> lists and links I > >> provided.  I > >> don't > >> > >> >> expect bloggers or techies to be > >> > >> >> >>>>> any different, as if > being > >> techie > >> > >> >> makes one a saint. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> Some of those > bloggers are > >> purely > >> > >> >> commercial or completely neglected, > >> > >> >> >>>>> I'm sure.  Some of > >> the groups or > >> > >> >> events or sites listed are lousy, > >> > >> >> >>>>> boring or poor > marketing > >> excuses to > >> > >> >> sell something.  Some are not out > >> > >> >> >>>>> to create community > but to > >> build a > >> > >> >> "kingdom" for their own benefit. > >> > >> >> >>>>> They are the duds. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> Let's look at a few > >> positives: > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> - Read the > Gangplank > >> Manifesto on > >> > >> >> their home page at > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> http://gangplankhq.com.  That looks like > >> > >> >> a great articulation of their > >> > >> >> >>>>> goals and purpose.  > Ones > >> I > >> strongly > >> > >> >> support! > >> > >> >> >>>>> -- Read how the > manifesto > >> came to be > >> > >> >> on Derek's blog at > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/ > >> > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> - Gangplank has > hosted or is > >> hosting: > >> > >> >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day > long > >> conference on > >> > >> >> developing for phones like > >> > >> >> >>>>> iPhone or Android > >> > >> >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a > 2-3 hour > >> Saturday > >> > >> >> event for kids 5-15 to learn > >> > >> >> >>>>> programming > concepts > >> > >> >> >>>>> -- Wordpress > training classes > >> for > >> > >> >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit > orgs > >> > >> >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a > day > >> long > >> > >> >> conference on job searching and > entreprenuership > >> > >> >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - > a day > >> long > >> > >> >> conference on software development > >> > >> >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - > Watch ted.com > >> videos > >> > >> >> and discuss them > >> > >> >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a > night of > >> open mic > >> > >> >> music and entertainment > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> - The last > >> > >> http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and > >> > >> >> nearly > >> > >> >> >>>>> filled DeVry's > Phoenix > >> campus with > >> > >> >> developers talking about code or > >> > >> >> >>>>> making code.  Free > lunch > >> of pizza > >> and > >> > >> >> sub sandwiches was provided too. > >> > >> >> >>>>>  Put together by > >> volunteers. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> - If you're into > >> Microsoft based > >> > >> >> development tech, the people who > >> > >> >> >>>>> maintain the > >> http://azgroups.com > >> site do an annual all-day event at > >> > >> >> >>>>> venues like the > Orphium > >> Theater and at > >> > >> >> no cost to attendees.  Fine, > >> > >> >> >>>>> it's marketing for > MS but > >> it's put on > >> > >> >> by volunteers here in the valley > >> > >> >> >>>>> and a great way for > people to > >> learn > >> > >> >> about things that improve their > >> > >> >> >>>>> career skills. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> ( > >> http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx > >> ) > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On > Rails > >> group has > >> > >> >> monthly meetings with around 30 > >> > >> >> >>>>> regularly in > attendance. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> - The Java group is > also well > >> attended > >> > >> >> every month. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> - The third > >> http://podcampaz.com/ > >>  is coming up in November, put on > >> > >> >> by > >> > >> >> >>>>> voluteers at no > cost > >> (donation > >> > >> >> requested) to attendees.  Had about 350 > >> > >> >> >>>>> people attend last > year (if I > >> recall) > >> > >> >> for two days of conference. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> - The > >> > >> http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference > will be in > >> > >> >> November > >> > >> >> >>>>> for the forth year. > >> This one > >> costs > >> > >> >> $100+ but should be as well > >> > >> >> >>>>> attended as last > year with > >> 200+ > >> > >> >> people.  Funded and organized in part > >> > >> >> >>>>> by a local venture > capital > >> group. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> - The first > >> > >> http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago > >> with > >> > >> >> a > >> > >> >> >>>>> little over 100 in > attendance > >> and has > >> > >> >> grown to fill the 600 seat > >> > >> >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe > Center for > >> the Arts > >> > >> >> back in June.  The connections > >> > >> >> >>>>> made there live well > past the > >> event. > >> > >> >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city > council member > >> and the > >> > >> >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last > >> > >> >> >>>>> time, though he was > a bit > >> silly trying > >> > >> >> to be Tempe exclusive.  That > >> > >> >> >>>>> seems to be at least > verbal > >> political > >> > >> >> support. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> - The second > ABLEConf on > >> FS/OSS is > >> > >> >> being planned for October and > >> > >> >> >>>>> should be better > than last > >> year. (Go > >> > >> >> Hans and team!) > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> I'm not going to go > on, > >> though I could > >> > >> >> point out several purely social > >> > >> >> >>>>> events like > >> > >> http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's > east and > >> west > >> > >> >> valley > >> > >> >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley > Thursday > >> Morning > >> > >> >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch, > >> > >> >> >>>>> South Valley Geek > Meet and > >> Eat and > >> > >> >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch > >> > >> >> >>>>> presentations every > >> Wednesday. > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> Now, having said all > of that > >> "giddy > >> > >> >> blind optimism," I'd like to > >> > >> >> >>>>> understand how the > above does > >> not > >> > >> >> address the efforts of the past or > >> > >> >> >>>>> provide improvement > over past > >> efforts. > >> > >> >>  What are the real needs of the > >> > >> >> >>>>> community, if not > some of the > >> above? > >> > >> >>  What would you suggest?  How can > >> > >> >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of > it? > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> Alan > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 > at 1:34 > >> PM, > >> > >> >> Joshua Zeidner > >> > >> >> wrote: > >> > >> >> >>>>>>  Alan, > >> > >> >> >>>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>>>    while I > >> appreciate > >> your post, > >> > >> >> and anyone who is making a sincere > >> > >> >> >>>>>> effort to build > community > >> in > >> > >> >> Phoenix... be warned.  There are some > >> > >> >> >>>>>> small groups > who > >> periodically > >> > >> >> spawn off new 'communities' every month > >> > >> >> >>>>>> or so.  Look > closely > >> and you > >> see > >> > >> >> the same few people with reused > >> > >> >> >>>>>> marketing > recipes. > >> Lots of > >> blog > >> > >> >> and not too much community I'm > >> > >> >> >>>>>> afraid.  Their > >> efforts amount > >> to > >> > >> >> some simple branding and putting up a > >> > >> >> >>>>>> blog.  While > these > >> things are > >> not > >> > >> >> really particularily offensive to > >> > >> >> >>>>>> me, they do > somewhat > >> detract from > >> > >> >> interest in the real needs of the > >> > >> >> >>>>>> community here. > >> Some of > >> these > >> > >> >> people are just outright idiotic and > >> > >> >> >>>>>> cannot deal > with > >> existing > >> > >> >> structure and refuse to accept the > history > >> > >> >> >>>>>> of efforts in > the > >> past.  They > >> > >> >> lack any articulation of their goals and > >> > >> >> >>>>>> purpose.  > Often > >> times they > >> have > >> > >> >> trouble organizing even small groups > >> > >> >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3.  > Dont > >> forget we've > >> had > >> > >> >> a tech incubator here.  Lets not > >> > >> >> >>>>>> smack down > sincere > >> criticism in > >> > >> >> favor of giddy blind optimism, > >> > >> >> >>>>>> remember you > can't > >> improve without > >> > >> >> criticism.  I would take these > >> > >> >> >>>>>> people much > more > >> seriously if they > >> > >> >> addressed the efforts of the past > >> > >> >> >>>>>> and perhaps > suggested how > >> they are > >> > >> >> going to improve on them, or > >> > >> >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate > what has > >> changed > >> > >> >> that will make them a success. > >> > >> >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking > real > >> political > >> > >> >> support would gain some legitimacy. > >> > >> >> >>>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>>>    on the > >> positive side, > >> I think > >> > >> >> Phoenix will attract a lot of > >> > >> >> >>>>>> technology > business due > >> to its > >> > >> >> relative low cost and no doubt you will > >> > >> >> >>>>>> start to see > community > >> > >> >> infrastructure grow.  We are seeing > some > >> real > >> > >> >> >>>>>> urban > development > >> happening in Phx > >> > >> >> metro which has me very excited.  I > >> > >> >> >>>>>> think when the > >> macroeconomic > >> > >> >> problems are sorted out we will see > >> > >> >> >>>>>> downtown Phx > bloom. > >> Im > >> hoping > >> > >> >> that the average Arizonan gets involved > >> > >> >> >>>>>> in the political > process > >> and make > >> > >> >> sure that the corruption stays out > >> > >> >> >>>>>> of city and > state > >> politics. > >> > >> >>  Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot > of > >> > >> >> >>>>>> positive > development > >> trends in Phx > >> > >> >> metro. > >> > >> >> >>>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>>>>  -jmz > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing > list - > >> PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> > >> >> >>>>> To subscribe, > unsubscribe, or > >> to > >> > >> >> change your mail settings: > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > >> >> >>>>> > >> > >> >> >>>> > >> > >> >> >>> > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> >> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - > >> PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> > >> >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to > change > >> your mail > >> > >> >> settings: > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >> > > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - > >> PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> > >> >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to > change your > >> mail > >> > >> >> settings: > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - > >> PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> > >> >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change > your mail > >> > >> >> settings: > >> > >> >> > >> > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > >> >> > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > --------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> > PLUG-discuss mailing list - > >> PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> > >> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your > mail > >> settings: > >> > >> > > >> > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > >> > > >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - > >> PLUG-discuss@lists.plug.phoenix.az.us > >> > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail > >> settings: > >> > >> > >> http://lists.PLUG.phoenix.az.us/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list - 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