and who enforces your contracts, Keith? -jmz On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 8:12 PM, keith smith wrote: > > > Only problem is you have government in business. > > ------------------------ > Keith Smith > > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Lyle Tuttle wrote: > >> From: Lyle Tuttle >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 7:58 PM >> >> >> The city of Surprise has moved into a new >> city hall complex, >> and are turning the old offices / building into a >> "start-up" or >> incubator for new or emerging businesses. >> >> >> lyle tuttle >> >> >> At 07:50 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote: >> >> On Sat, Aug 1, >> 2009 at 6:50 PM, >> keith smith wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > I think what is really missing from this equation is >> mentoring and >> training. >> >> >>   what I would like to see is some real support from >> AZ government >> to >> >> help make tech companies feel welcome here.  This >> means: >> >> >>   1) making the valley a good place not only to build >> a company but >> to >> >> build a *career*.  this means buy in from both sides >> of the >> equation. >> >> I would like to see a bit more address at lower capital >> levels, but >> >> that may prove to be difficult.  It seems that most >> existing >> concepts >> >> are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you build >> a factory >> >> in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers, but >> technology >> >> requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving job >> market. >> The >> >> needs are quite different.  The biggest issue with >> starting a >> company >> >> out here is finding people.  Where are all the >> people?  in >> CA. >> >> because it has a good job market.  If we can outsource >> to India, >> we >> >> sure as hell can outsource to Arizona. >> >> >>   2) setting up low cost legal structure and as you >> say mentoring >> to >> >> really help stimulate technology development. >> We've seen (at >> least >> >> nominal) efforts in the past.  Why did they >> fail?  This means >> real and >> >> adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production and >> market. >> A >> >> small investment in this area will yield returns in tax >> base and >> >> property value by a factor of hundreds.  Arizona has >> the potential >> to >> >> pick up a lot of this commercial activity because >> California is >> >> currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state to >> build your >> >> business.  If AZ fails to see the opportunity here, we >> will lose >> out >> >> big time.  Currently the budget proceedings are still >> in >> gridlock. >> >> >>   the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right idea, >> he was >> suggesting >> >> recently a green technology center near Phx center.  I >> think thats >> the >> >> direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz >> >> >> > >> >> > I like the idea that folks are getting together to >> network. >> This is a really cool idea.  Even for non-technical >> stuff like >> finding out how people deal with customers, contracting, >> book-keeping, >> ETC. >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------ >> >> > Keith Smith >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner >> >> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> From: Joshua Zeidner >> >> >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in >> PHX >> >> >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" >> >> >> >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM, >> >> >> Alan Dayley >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> > Joshua, >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I put all your replies together in one long >> document >> >> >> and reread them. >> >> >> > I am still confused a bit. >> Enlightenment via >> email >> >> >> rarely occurs. >> >> >> > However, I really want to understand your >> position in >> >> >> this discussion. >> >> >> >  Let me summarize what I understand from >> your >> >> >> replies. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your >> comments]--- >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - There is a small group or groups of people >> who keep >> >> >> spinning off >> >> >> > communities using tired marketing >> techniques. >> This >> >> >> results in blogs >> >> >> > but not true communities. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - Some of these people cannot deal with >> existing >> >> >> structure and the >> >> >> > efforts of the past. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - These weak attempts do not articulate goals >> or >> >> >> purpose well, if at all. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - We must honestly look at criticism to learn >> and >> >> >> improve. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - These weak people need to address the >> efforts of the >> >> >> past and >> >> >> > provide suggestions on how they can be >> improved upon. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - Getting political support will provide >> legitimacy to >> >> >> their efforts. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - Phoenix will attract technology businesses >> because >> >> >> of the relative >> >> >> > low cost and this will help improve things. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - You have first hand experiences of weak, >> marketing >> >> >> fronted, >> >> >> > community building efforts. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand >> ideas but get >> >> >> nowhere with them >> >> >> > because they are not real businesses. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - People at a co-working location or coffee >> shop will >> >> >> not help you >> >> >> > with your business unless you pay them. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - Most people at co-working started their one >> person >> >> >> business after >> >> >> > being laid-off and are not serious about >> it. >> They >> >> >> are really just >> >> >> > looking for the next full time gig. >> This will get >> in >> >> >> your way if you >> >> >> > have real business work to do. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - We must look truthfully at this issue if we >> are to >> >> >> make progress. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > - There are no serious incubators and >> entrepreneurial >> >> >> meetups in >> >> >> > Phoenix.  No announcements on VC funding >> of >> companies >> >> >> so it's not >> >> >> > really entrepreneurial growth. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your comments]--- >> >> >> > >> >> >> > I see validity in every one of these >> comments.  I >> >> >> also think many of >> >> >> > them can be balanced by the other point of >> view. >> I >> >> >> still have >> >> >> > questions, if I may ask, before I state too >> much of my >> >> >> own thinking. >> >> >> > I want to learn more about your thinking. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 1. What does "deal with existing >> structure" >> mean? >> >> >>  This confuses me, >> >> >> > not know what structure you are talking >> about. >> >> >> >> >> >>   Many user groups have been formed and >> continue >> to >> >> >> exist... how is >> >> >> different?  other than its led >> by >> >> >> person Y?  I mean dealing >> >> >> with some of these groups I feel like Im back to >> age 8 >> >> >> trying to gain >> >> >> admittance into the neighborhood treehouse. >> Perhaps I >> >> >> should spend >> >> >> more time drinking beer with these people? >> Seeing the >> >> >> same small >> >> >> group churning out 'communities' is at >> first funny, then >> >> >> annoying.  I >> >> >> just see a real lack of serious intent, and unless >> that is >> >> >> noted >> >> >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad.  I >> really dont >> >> >> think Im being >> >> >> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out >> some valid >> >> >> observations. >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you >> referring? >> I >> >> >> want to >> >> >> > understand the size and nature of efforts to >> creating >> >> >> a community that >> >> >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did not >> work as >> >> >> planned. >> >> >> >> >> >>   I remember when I first came to AZ >> that there was >> an >> >> >> tech >> >> >> incubator...  what happened to it? >> Which >> >> >> political agents currently >> >> >> support technology development in the >> valley?  what do >> >> >> they think >> >> >> about your org?  these things are pretty >> basic... >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 3. What political support is needed? >> You mean >> >> >> government funding of >> >> >> > events or startups or just verbal support or >> what? >> >> >> >> >> >>   I wouldn't expect funding, but it >> would be good >> to >> >> >> see some >> >> >> political buy in.  Lack of just supports my >> opinions, >> >> >> that its really >> >> >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor organization. >> >> >> Without any good >> >> >> signposts, all this will produce are people who >> get jaded >> >> >> and >> >> >> disaffected with regards to this location. >> If you had >> >> >> something >> >> >> together I doubt that a good politician would turn >> you >> >> >> down. >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for someone >> who is >> >> >> laid-off to have >> >> >> > grand ideas, talk about them and they never >> come to >> >> >> be? >> >> >> >> >> >>   Its not.  As I said, I don't >> find any of >> these >> >> >> things highly >> >> >> offensive- but like you I am free to express >> myself. >> >> >> Sorry if its not >> >> >> filled with abundant exaltations. >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people might >> help each >> >> >> other in business >> >> >> > efforts?  Isn't strengthening and >> creating such a >> >> >> culture a good idea >> >> >> > or should such a goal not be pursued because >> it is not >> >> >> practically >> >> >> > possible? >> >> >> >> >> >>   sure.  good thread btw. >> -jmz >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Alan >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua >> Zeidner >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> another great one: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are >> the >> incubators, >> >> >> the "bootstrap" >> >> >> >> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial >> meetups in >> >> >> Phoenix??? (crickets >> >> >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't >> happening as a >> >> >> serious place where >> >> >> >> serious people are doing serious things. >> No one >> >> >> wants it badly enough >> >> >> >> here. This paper should be having at >> least one >> >> >> article a week on a new >> >> >> >> startup and the VC firm who funded it. >> >> >> Helloooo????? is anybody out >> >> >> >> there...." >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> a better way to phrase this: we need to >> stop >> >> >> pretending these >> >> >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by local >> >> >> self-employed marketing experts >> >> >> >> are sufficient.  They are not. >> We should >> be >> >> >> asking the hard >> >> >> >> questions, not playing games. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -jmz >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Joshua >> >> >> Zeidner >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>>  another point, honestly reading >> through >> some >> >> >> of the criticisms on >> >> >> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe >> dwelling creed >> >> >> myself, I'd have to say >> >> >> >>> that many of those points are >> accurate. >> I've >> >> >> heard lots of >> >> >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big >> ideas around here who >> >> >> never get anywhere with >> >> >> >>> them.  Sorry, but a word press >> template >> >> >> doesn't make you an >> >> >> >>> entrepreneur. >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>  "These are the same people >> you see >> at >> >> >> Starbucks, Boarders or any >> >> >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are not >> >> >> entrepreneurs they are attention >> >> >> >>> (inappropriate term)." >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>  "Many of the Co-Worker >> location >> founders >> >> >> tout other people to >> >> >> >>> collaborate with and who can >> "compensate >> for >> >> >> your deficiencies". Do >> >> >> >>> you really believe someone that you >> are not >> >> >> paying as an employee is >> >> >> >>> going to somehow compensate for your >> >> >> deficiencies and make your >> >> >> >>> business better? That kind of help >> doesn't >> >> >> come without a price." >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>  oh so true... >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>  "You are more likely to >> get a bunch >> of >> >> >> people chatting to you over >> >> >> >>> your "work" so you wont be >> concentrating >> as >> >> >> you should to focus on >> >> >> >>> your business. Most of these people >> started >> >> >> businesses after being >> >> >> >>> laid off. They are searching for a >> new job and >> >> >> they aren't really >> >> >> >>> serious about their >> "businesses" so how >> do you >> >> >> expect them to give you >> >> >> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are these >> the kind >> >> >> of people you need to >> >> >> >>> compensate for your deficiencies? A >> bunch of >> >> >> people half-as running >> >> >> >>> their "business" while >> searching for a >> real >> >> >> job and bothering you with >> >> >> >>> their expertise that got them laid >> off in the >> >> >> first place." >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>  oh so so true... >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>  I would be willing to bet the >> commenter >> >> >> above is an tried and true >> >> >> >>> successful entrepreneur. >> Perhaps the >> reason >> >> >> I am so skeptical is >> >> >> >>> because I know these kind of people >> so well. >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>  sorry I really wish I could be >> more >> >> >> supportive... but :  truth is >> >> >> >>> the foundation of progress. >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>>  -jmz >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, >> Joshua >> >> >> Zeidner >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>>>  Alan, >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>>    Wish I had time >> to respond to >> all >> >> >> these points right now, not sure >> >> >> >>>> you read me the way I would >> prefer >> >> >> however.  Its not so grave a >> >> >> >>>> warning, just getting the word >> out on my >> >> >> first hand experiences.  Im >> >> >> >>>> just one of many- but hopefully >> an >> >> >> impartial observer and someone >> >> >> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ. >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>>  all the best, jmz >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM, >> Alan >> >> >> Dayley >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>>>> Josh, >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> I feel warned.  And I >> don't >> >> >> understand the reason for such a strong warning. >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> There are people in every >> industry, >> >> >> government or community who wish >> >> >> >>>>> to fleece their >> "community" for >> their >> >> >> own profit instead of mutual >> >> >> >>>>> benefit.  The trick is >> to find >> the >> >> >> positive people and ignore the >> >> >> >>>>> rest.  Apply the same >> filter with >> >> >> every event, group or blogger in the >> >> >> >>>>> lists and links I >> provided.  I >> don't >> >> >> expect bloggers or techies to be >> >> >> >>>>> any different, as if being >> techie >> >> >> makes one a saint. >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> Some of those bloggers are >> purely >> >> >> commercial or completely neglected, >> >> >> >>>>> I'm sure.  Some of >> the groups or >> >> >> events or sites listed are lousy, >> >> >> >>>>> boring or poor marketing >> excuses to >> >> >> sell something.  Some are not out >> >> >> >>>>> to create community but to >> build a >> >> >> "kingdom" for their own benefit. >> >> >> >>>>> They are the duds. >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> Let's look at a few >> positives: >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank >> Manifesto on >> >> >> their home page at >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> http://gangplankhq.com.  That looks like >> >> >> a great articulation of their >> >> >> >>>>> goals and purpose.  Ones >> I >> strongly >> >> >> support! >> >> >> >>>>> -- Read how the manifesto >> came to be >> >> >> on Derek's blog at >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/ >> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or is >> hosting: >> >> >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long >> conference on >> >> >> developing for phones like >> >> >> >>>>> iPhone or Android >> >> >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 hour >> Saturday >> >> >> event for kids 5-15 to learn >> >> >> >>>>> programming concepts >> >> >> >>>>> -- Wordpress training classes >> for >> >> >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs >> >> >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day >> long >> >> >> conference on job searching and entreprenuership >> >> >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a day >> long >> >> >> conference on software development >> >> >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch ted.com >> videos >> >> >> and discuss them >> >> >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night of >> open mic >> >> >> music and entertainment >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> - The last >> >> http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and >> >> >> nearly >> >> >> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix >> campus with >> >> >> developers talking about code or >> >> >> >>>>> making code.  Free lunch >> of pizza >> and >> >> >> sub sandwiches was provided too. >> >> >> >>>>>  Put together by >> volunteers. >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> - If you're into >> Microsoft based >> >> >> development tech, the people who >> >> >> >>>>> maintain the >> http://azgroups.com >> site do an annual all-day event at >> >> >> >>>>> venues like the Orphium >> Theater and at >> >> >> no cost to attendees.  Fine, >> >> >> >>>>> it's marketing for MS but >> it's put on >> >> >> by volunteers here in the valley >> >> >> >>>>> and a great way for people to >> learn >> >> >> about things that improve their >> >> >> >>>>> career skills. >> >> >> >>>>> >> ( >> http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx >> ) >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails >> group has >> >> >> monthly meetings with around 30 >> >> >> >>>>> regularly in attendance. >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> - The Java group is also well >> attended >> >> >> every month. >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> - The third >> http://podcampaz.com/ >>  is coming up in November, put on >> >> >> by >> >> >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost >> (donation >> >> >> requested) to attendees.  Had about 350 >> >> >> >>>>> people attend last year (if I >> recall) >> >> >> for two days of conference. >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> - The >> >> http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in >> >> >> November >> >> >> >>>>> for the forth year. >> This one >> costs >> >> >> $100+ but should be as well >> >> >> >>>>> attended as last year with >> 200+ >> >> >> people.  Funded and organized in part >> >> >> >>>>> by a local venture capital >> group. >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> - The first >> >> http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago >> with >> >> >> a >> >> >> >>>>> little over 100 in attendance >> and has >> >> >> grown to fill the 600 seat >> >> >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center for >> the Arts >> >> >> back in June.  The connections >> >> >> >>>>> made there live well past the >> event. >> >> >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council member >> and the >> >> >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last >> >> >> >>>>> time, though he was a bit >> silly trying >> >> >> to be Tempe exclusive.  That >> >> >> >>>>> seems to be at least verbal >> political >> >> >> support. >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on >> FS/OSS is >> >> >> being planned for October and >> >> >> >>>>> should be better than last >> year. (Go >> >> >> Hans and team!) >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> I'm not going to go on, >> though I could >> >> >> point out several purely social >> >> >> >>>>> events like >> >> http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and >> west >> >> >> valley >> >> >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley Thursday >> Morning >> >> >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch, >> >> >> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet and >> Eat and >> >> >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch >> >> >> >>>>> presentations every >> Wednesday. >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> Now, having said all of that >> "giddy >> >> >> blind optimism," I'd like to >> >> >> >>>>> understand how the above does >> not >> >> >> address the efforts of the past or >> >> >> >>>>> provide improvement over past >> efforts. >> >> >>  What are the real needs of the >> >> >> >>>>> community, if not some of the >> above? >> >> >>  What would you suggest?  How can >> >> >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it? >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> Alan >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:34 >> PM, >> >> >> Joshua Zeidner >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>>>>>  Alan, >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>    while I >> appreciate >> your post, >> >> >> and anyone who is making a sincere >> >> >> >>>>>> effort to build community >> in >> >> >> Phoenix... be warned.  There are some >> >> >> >>>>>> small groups who >> periodically >> >> >> spawn off new 'communities' every month >> >> >> >>>>>> or so.  Look closely >> and you >> see >> >> >> the same few people with reused >> >> >> >>>>>> marketing recipes. >> Lots of >> blog >> >> >> and not too much community I'm >> >> >> >>>>>> afraid.  Their >> efforts amount >> to >> >> >> some simple branding and putting up a >> >> >> >>>>>> blog.  While these >> things are >> not >> >> >> really particularily offensive to >> >> >> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat >> detract from >> >> >> interest in the real needs of the >> >> >> >>>>>> community here. >> Some of >> these >> >> >> people are just outright idiotic and >> >> >> >>>>>> cannot deal with >> existing >> >> >> structure and refuse to accept the history >> >> >> >>>>>> of efforts in the >> past.  They >> >> >> lack any articulation of their goals and >> >> >> >>>>>> purpose.  Often >> times they >> have >> >> >> trouble organizing even small groups >> >> >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3.  Dont >> forget we've >> had >> >> >> a tech incubator here.  Lets not >> >> >> >>>>>> smack down sincere >> criticism in >> >> >> favor of giddy blind optimism, >> >> >> >>>>>> remember you can't >> improve without >> >> >> criticism.  I would take these >> >> >> >>>>>> people much more >> seriously if they >> >> >> addressed the efforts of the past >> >> >> >>>>>> and perhaps suggested how >> they are >> >> >> going to improve on them, or >> >> >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate what has >> changed >> >> >> that will make them a success. >> >> >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real >> political >> >> >> support would gain some legitimacy. >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>    on the >> positive side, >> I think >> >> >> Phoenix will attract a lot of >> >> >> >>>>>> technology business due >> to its >> >> >> relative low cost and no doubt you will >> >> >> >>>>>> start to see community >> >> >> infrastructure grow.  We are seeing some >> real >> >> >> >>>>>> urban development >> happening in Phx >> >> >> metro which has me very excited.  I >> >> >> >>>>>> think when the >> macroeconomic >> >> >> problems are sorted out we will see >> >> >> >>>>>> downtown Phx bloom. >> Im >> hoping >> >> >> that the average Arizonan gets involved >> >> >> >>>>>> in the political process >> and make >> >> >> sure that the corruption stays out >> >> >> >>>>>> of city and state >> politics. >> >> >>  Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of >> >> >> >>>>>> positive development >> trends in Phx >> >> >> metro. >> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>  -jmz >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - 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