Only problem is you have government in business. ------------------------ Keith Smith --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Lyle Tuttle wrote: > From: Lyle Tuttle > Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 7:58 PM > > > The city of Surprise has moved into a new > city hall complex, > and are turning the old offices / building into a > "start-up" or > incubator for new or emerging businesses. > > > lyle tuttle > > > At 07:50 PM 8/1/2009, you wrote: > > On Sat, Aug 1, > 2009 at 6:50 PM, > keith smith wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think what is really missing from this equation is > mentoring and > training. > > >   what I would like to see is some real support from > AZ government > to > > help make tech companies feel welcome here.  This > means: > > >   1) making the valley a good place not only to build > a company but > to > > build a *career*.  this means buy in from both sides > of the > equation. > > I would like to see a bit more address at lower capital > levels, but > > that may prove to be difficult.  It seems that most > existing > concepts > > are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you build > a factory > > in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers, but > technology > > requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving job > market.  > The > > needs are quite different.  The biggest issue with > starting a > company > > out here is finding people.  Where are all the > people?  in > CA. > > because it has a good job market.  If we can outsource > to India, > we > > sure as hell can outsource to Arizona. > > >   2) setting up low cost legal structure and as you > say mentoring > to > > really help stimulate technology development.  > We've seen (at > least > > nominal) efforts in the past.  Why did they > fail?  This means > real and > > adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production and > market.  > A > > small investment in this area will yield returns in tax > base and > > property value by a factor of hundreds.  Arizona has > the potential > to > > pick up a lot of this commercial activity because > California is > > currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state to > build your > > business.  If AZ fails to see the opportunity here, we > will lose > out > > big time.  Currently the budget proceedings are still > in > gridlock. > > >   the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right idea, > he was > suggesting > > recently a green technology center near Phx center.  I > think thats > the > > direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz > > > > > > > I like the idea that folks are getting together to > network.  > This is a really cool idea.  Even for non-technical > stuff like > finding out how people deal with customers, contracting, > book-keeping, > ETC. > > > > > > ------------------------ > > > Keith Smith > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner > > wrote: > > > > > >> From: Joshua Zeidner > > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in > PHX > > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > > > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM > > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM, > > >> Alan Dayley > > >> wrote: > > >> > Joshua, > > >> > > > >> > I put all your replies together in one long > document > > >> and reread them. > > >> > I am still confused a bit.  > Enlightenment via > email > > >> rarely occurs. > > >> > However, I really want to understand your > position in > > >> this discussion. > > >> >  Let me summarize what I understand from > your > > >> replies. > > >> > > > >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your > comments]--- > > >> > > > >> > - There is a small group or groups of people > who keep > > >> spinning off > > >> > communities using tired marketing > techniques.  > This > > >> results in blogs > > >> > but not true communities. > > >> > > > >> > - Some of these people cannot deal with > existing > > >> structure and the > > >> > efforts of the past. > > >> > > > >> > - These weak attempts do not articulate goals > or > > >> purpose well, if at all. > > >> > > > >> > - We must honestly look at criticism to learn > and > > >> improve. > > >> > > > >> > - These weak people need to address the > efforts of the > > >> past and > > >> > provide suggestions on how they can be > improved upon. > > >> > > > >> > - Getting political support will provide > legitimacy to > > >> their efforts. > > >> > > > >> > - Phoenix will attract technology businesses > because > > >> of the relative > > >> > low cost and this will help improve things. > > >> > > > >> > - You have first hand experiences of weak, > marketing > > >> fronted, > > >> > community building efforts. > > >> > > > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand > ideas but get > > >> nowhere with them > > >> > because they are not real businesses. > > >> > > > >> > - People at a co-working location or coffee > shop will > > >> not help you > > >> > with your business unless you pay them. > > >> > > > >> > - Most people at co-working started their one > person > > >> business after > > >> > being laid-off and are not serious about > it.  > They > > >> are really just > > >> > looking for the next full time gig.  > This will get > in > > >> your way if you > > >> > have real business work to do. > > >> > > > >> > - We must look truthfully at this issue if we > are to > > >> make progress. > > >> > > > >> > - There are no serious incubators and > entrepreneurial > > >> meetups in > > >> > Phoenix.  No announcements on VC funding > of > companies > > >> so it's not > > >> > really entrepreneurial growth. > > >> > > > >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your comments]--- > > >> > > > >> > I see validity in every one of these > comments.  I > > >> also think many of > > >> > them can be balanced by the other point of > view.  > I > > >> still have > > >> > questions, if I may ask, before I state too > much of my > > >> own thinking. > > >> > I want to learn more about your thinking. > > >> > > > >> > 1. What does "deal with existing > structure" > mean? > > >>  This confuses me, > > >> > not know what structure you are talking > about. > > >> > > >>   Many user groups have been formed and > continue > to > > >> exist... how is > > >> different?  other than its led > by > > >> person Y?  I mean dealing > > >> with some of these groups I feel like Im back to > age 8 > > >> trying to gain > > >> admittance into the neighborhood treehouse.  > Perhaps I > > >> should spend > > >> more time drinking beer with these people?  > Seeing the > > >> same small > > >> group churning out 'communities' is at > first funny, then > > >> annoying.  I > > >> just see a real lack of serious intent, and unless > that is > > >> noted > > >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad.  I > really dont > > >> think Im being > > >> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out > some valid > > >> observations. > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you > referring?  > I > > >> want to > > >> > understand the size and nature of efforts to > creating > > >> a community that > > >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did not > work as > > >> planned. > > >> > > >>   I remember when I first came to AZ > that there was > an > > >> tech > > >> incubator...  what happened to it?  > Which > > >> political agents currently > > >> support technology development in the > valley?  what do > > >> they think > > >> about your org?  these things are pretty > basic... > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 3. What political support is needed?  > You mean > > >> government funding of > > >> > events or startups or just verbal support or > what? > > >> > > >>   I wouldn't expect funding, but it > would be good > to > > >> see some > > >> political buy in.  Lack of just supports my > opinions, > > >> that its really > > >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor organization. > > >> Without any good > > >> signposts, all this will produce are people who > get jaded > > >> and > > >> disaffected with regards to this location.  > If you had > > >> something > > >> together I doubt that a good politician would turn > you > > >> down. > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for someone > who is > > >> laid-off to have > > >> > grand ideas, talk about them and they never > come to > > >> be? > > >> > > >>   Its not.  As I said, I don't > find any of > these > > >> things highly > > >> offensive- but like you I am free to express > myself. > > >> Sorry if its not > > >> filled with abundant exaltations. > > >> > > >> > > > >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people might > help each > > >> other in business > > >> > efforts?  Isn't strengthening and > creating such a > > >> culture a good idea > > >> > or should such a goal not be pursued because > it is not > > >> practically > > >> > possible? > > >> > > >>   sure.  good thread btw.  > -jmz > > >> > > >> > > > >> > Alan > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua > Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >> another great one: > > >> >> > > >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are > the > incubators, > > >> the "bootstrap" > > >> >> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial > meetups in > > >> Phoenix??? (crickets > > >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't > happening as a > > >> serious place where > > >> >> serious people are doing serious things. > No one > > >> wants it badly enough > > >> >> here. This paper should be having at > least one > > >> article a week on a new > > >> >> startup and the VC firm who funded it. > > >> Helloooo????? is anybody out > > >> >> there...." > > >> >> > > >> >> a better way to phrase this: we need to > stop > > >> pretending these > > >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by local > > >> self-employed marketing experts > > >> >> are sufficient.  They are not.  > We should > be > > >> asking the hard > > >> >> questions, not playing games. > > >> >> > > >> >> -jmz > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Joshua > > >> Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>  another point, honestly reading > through > some > > >> of the criticisms on > > >> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe > dwelling creed > > >> myself, I'd have to say > > >> >>> that many of those points are > accurate.  > I've > > >> heard lots of > > >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big > ideas around here who > > >> never get anywhere with > > >> >>> them.  Sorry, but a word press > template > > >> doesn't make you an > > >> >>> entrepreneur. > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  "These are the same people > you see > at > > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any > > >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are not > > >> entrepreneurs they are attention > > >> >>> (inappropriate term)." > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  "Many of the Co-Worker > location > founders > > >> tout other people to > > >> >>> collaborate with and who can > "compensate > for > > >> your deficiencies". Do > > >> >>> you really believe someone that you > are not > > >> paying as an employee is > > >> >>> going to somehow compensate for your > > >> deficiencies and make your > > >> >>> business better? That kind of help > doesn't > > >> come without a price." > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  oh so true... > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  "You are more likely to > get a bunch > of > > >> people chatting to you over > > >> >>> your "work" so you wont be > concentrating > as > > >> you should to focus on > > >> >>> your business. Most of these people > started > > >> businesses after being > > >> >>> laid off. They are searching for a > new job and > > >> they aren't really > > >> >>> serious about their > "businesses" so how > do you > > >> expect them to give you > > >> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are these > the kind > > >> of people you need to > > >> >>> compensate for your deficiencies? A > bunch of > > >> people half-as running > > >> >>> their "business" while > searching for a > real > > >> job and bothering you with > > >> >>> their expertise that got them laid > off in the > > >> first place." > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  oh so so true... > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  I would be willing to bet the > commenter > > >> above is an tried and true > > >> >>> successful entrepreneur.  > Perhaps the > reason > > >> I am so skeptical is > > >> >>> because I know these kind of people > so well. > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  sorry I really wish I could be > more > > >> supportive... but :  truth is > > >> >>> the foundation of progress. > > >> >>> > > >> >>>  -jmz > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, > Joshua > > >> Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>>  Alan, > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>>    Wish I had time > to respond to > all > > >> these points right now, not sure > > >> >>>> you read me the way I would > prefer > > >> however.  Its not so grave a > > >> >>>> warning, just getting the word > out on my > > >> first hand experiences.  Im > > >> >>>> just one of many- but hopefully > an > > >> impartial observer and someone > > >> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ. > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>>  all the best, jmz > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM, > Alan > > >> Dayley > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>>> Josh, > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> I feel warned.  And I > don't > > >> understand the reason for such a strong warning. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> There are people in every > industry, > > >> government or community who wish > > >> >>>>> to fleece their > "community" for > their > > >> own profit instead of mutual > > >> >>>>> benefit.  The trick is > to find > the > > >> positive people and ignore the > > >> >>>>> rest.  Apply the same > filter with > > >> every event, group or blogger in the > > >> >>>>> lists and links I > provided.  I > don't > > >> expect bloggers or techies to be > > >> >>>>> any different, as if being > techie > > >> makes one a saint. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Some of those bloggers are > purely > > >> commercial or completely neglected, > > >> >>>>> I'm sure.  Some of > the groups or > > >> events or sites listed are lousy, > > >> >>>>> boring or poor marketing > excuses to > > >> sell something.  Some are not out > > >> >>>>> to create community but to > build a > > >> "kingdom" for their own benefit. > > >> >>>>> They are the duds. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Let's look at a few > positives: > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank > Manifesto on > > >> their home page at > > >> >>>>> > > http://gangplankhq.com.  That looks like > > >> a great articulation of their > > >> >>>>> goals and purpose.  Ones > I > strongly > > >> support! > > >> >>>>> -- Read how the manifesto > came to be > > >> on Derek's blog at > > >> >>>>> > > http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/ > > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or is > hosting: > > >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long > conference on > > >> developing for phones like > > >> >>>>> iPhone or Android > > >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 hour > Saturday > > >> event for kids 5-15 to learn > > >> >>>>> programming concepts > > >> >>>>> -- Wordpress training classes > for > > >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs > > >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day > long > > >> conference on job searching and entreprenuership > > >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a day > long > > >> conference on software development > > >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch ted.com > videos > > >> and discuss them > > >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night of > open mic > > >> music and entertainment > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The last > > http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and > > >> nearly > > >> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix > campus with > > >> developers talking about code or > > >> >>>>> making code.  Free lunch > of pizza > and > > >> sub sandwiches was provided too. > > >> >>>>>  Put together by > volunteers. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - If you're into > Microsoft based > > >> development tech, the people who > > >> >>>>> maintain the > http://azgroups.com > site do an annual all-day event at > > >> >>>>> venues like the Orphium > Theater and at > > >> no cost to attendees.  Fine, > > >> >>>>> it's marketing for MS but > it's put on > > >> by volunteers here in the valley > > >> >>>>> and a great way for people to > learn > > >> about things that improve their > > >> >>>>> career skills. > > >> >>>>> > ( > http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx > ) > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails > group has > > >> monthly meetings with around 30 > > >> >>>>> regularly in attendance. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The Java group is also well > attended > > >> every month. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The third > http://podcampaz.com/ > is coming up in November, put on > > >> by > > >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost > (donation > > >> requested) to attendees.  Had about 350 > > >> >>>>> people attend last year (if I > recall) > > >> for two days of conference. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The > > http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in > > >> November > > >> >>>>> for the forth year.  > This one > costs > > >> $100+ but should be as well > > >> >>>>> attended as last year with > 200+ > > >> people.  Funded and organized in part > > >> >>>>> by a local venture capital > group. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The first > > http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago > with > > >> a > > >> >>>>> little over 100 in attendance > and has > > >> grown to fill the 600 seat > > >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center for > the Arts > > >> back in June.  The connections > > >> >>>>> made there live well past the > event. > > >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council member > and the > > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last > > >> >>>>> time, though he was a bit > silly trying > > >> to be Tempe exclusive.  That > > >> >>>>> seems to be at least verbal > political > > >> support. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on > FS/OSS is > > >> being planned for October and > > >> >>>>> should be better than last > year. (Go > > >> Hans and team!) > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> I'm not going to go on, > though I could > > >> point out several purely social > > >> >>>>> events like > > http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and > west > > >> valley > > >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley Thursday > Morning > > >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch, > > >> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet and > Eat and > > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch > > >> >>>>> presentations every > Wednesday. > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Now, having said all of that > "giddy > > >> blind optimism," I'd like to > > >> >>>>> understand how the above does > not > > >> address the efforts of the past or > > >> >>>>> provide improvement over past > efforts. > > >>  What are the real needs of the > > >> >>>>> community, if not some of the > above? > > >>  What would you suggest?  How can > > >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it? > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Alan > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:34 > PM, > > >> Joshua Zeidner > > >> wrote: > > >> >>>>>>  Alan, > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>    while I > appreciate > your post, > > >> and anyone who is making a sincere > > >> >>>>>> effort to build community > in > > >> Phoenix... be warned.  There are some > > >> >>>>>> small groups who > periodically > > >> spawn off new 'communities' every month > > >> >>>>>> or so.  Look closely > and you > see > > >> the same few people with reused > > >> >>>>>> marketing recipes.  > Lots of > blog > > >> and not too much community I'm > > >> >>>>>> afraid.  Their > efforts amount > to > > >> some simple branding and putting up a > > >> >>>>>> blog.  While these > things are > not > > >> really particularily offensive to > > >> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat > detract from > > >> interest in the real needs of the > > >> >>>>>> community here.  > Some of > these > > >> people are just outright idiotic and > > >> >>>>>> cannot deal with > existing > > >> structure and refuse to accept the history > > >> >>>>>> of efforts in the > past.  They > > >> lack any articulation of their goals and > > >> >>>>>> purpose.  Often > times they > have > > >> trouble organizing even small groups > > >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3.  Dont > forget we've > had > > >> a tech incubator here.  Lets not > > >> >>>>>> smack down sincere > criticism in > > >> favor of giddy blind optimism, > > >> >>>>>> remember you can't > improve without > > >> criticism.  I would take these > > >> >>>>>> people much more > seriously if they > > >> addressed the efforts of the past > > >> >>>>>> and perhaps suggested how > they are > > >> going to improve on them, or > > >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate what has > changed > > >> that will make them a success. > > >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real > political > > >> support would gain some legitimacy. > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>    on the > positive side, > I think > > >> Phoenix will attract a lot of > > >> >>>>>> technology business due > to its > > >> relative low cost and no doubt you will > > >> >>>>>> start to see community > > >> infrastructure grow.  We are seeing some > real > > >> >>>>>> urban development > happening in Phx > > >> metro which has me very excited.  I > > >> >>>>>> think when the > macroeconomic > > >> problems are sorted out we will see > > >> >>>>>> downtown Phx bloom.  > Im > hoping > > >> that the average Arizonan gets involved > > >> >>>>>> in the political process > and make > > >> sure that the corruption stays out > > >> >>>>>> of city and state > politics. > > >>  Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of > > >> >>>>>> positive development > trends in Phx > > >> metro. > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>  -jmz > > >> >>>>> > > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > > >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - 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