I'm hearing that Government is the answer to our problems. I could not disagree more. If you want a thriving economy shrink government, reduce taxes, and allow a free market. I think Phoenix is moving in ways you are not seeing. Look at the tech companies in Phoenix. It is exploding. You have several startups that I am familiar with 1) GoDaddy - everyone loves to hate Godaddy however a friend just got a developer's job there that pays 90k; 2) TwoWire. I'm sure there are more. Nice thing about Phoenix is the low cost of living. You can start a business in your living room or a spare bedroom. On the west cost you might pay over $1000 for a small apartment. When I lived in Mesa I rented a 3 bedroom 2 bath house for $875/mo. You can buy that house for that today. Metro Phoenix is a thriving tech community. Of course this is only my perspective. ------------------------ Keith Smith --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner wrote: > From: Joshua Zeidner > Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in PHX > To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 7:08 PM > On Sat, Aug 1, 2009 at 6:50 PM, keith > smith > wrote: > > > > > > I think what is really missing from this equation is > mentoring and training. > >   what I would like to see is some real support from > AZ government to > help make tech companies feel welcome here.  This > means: > >   1) making the valley a good place not only to build > a company but to > build a *career*.  this means buy in from both sides > of the equation. > I would like to see a bit more address at lower capital > levels, but > that may prove to be difficult.  It seems that most > existing concepts > are kind of stuck in the industrial model, where you build > a factory > in a place with low taxes and hire low wage workers, but > technology > requires high wage workers who demand a good thriving job > market.  The > needs are quite different.  The biggest issue with > starting a company > out here is finding people.  Where are all the > people?  in CA. > because it has a good job market.  If we can outsource > to India, we > sure as hell can outsource to Arizona. > >   2) setting up low cost legal structure and as you > say mentoring to > really help stimulate technology development.  We've > seen (at least > nominal) efforts in the past.  Why did they > fail?  This means real and > adequate assistance in bringing concepts to production and > market.  A > small investment in this area will yield returns in tax > base and > property value by a factor of hundreds.  Arizona has > the potential to > pick up a lot of this commercial activity because > California is > currently set to become a tax strapped nightmare state to > build your > business.  If AZ fails to see the opportunity here, we > will lose out > big time.  Currently the budget proceedings are still > in gridlock. > >   the mayor of Phoenix seems to have the right idea, > he was suggesting > recently a green technology center near Phx center.  I > think thats the > direction AZ needs to go.  -jmz > > > > > I like the idea that folks are getting together to > network.  This is a really cool idea.  Even for > non-technical stuff like finding out how people deal with > customers, contracting, book-keeping, ETC. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ > > Keith Smith > > > > > > --- On Sat, 8/1/09, Joshua Zeidner > wrote: > > > >> From: Joshua Zeidner > >> Subject: Re: Geek/Tech/Entrepreneur Stuff to do in > PHX > >> To: "Main PLUG discussion list" > >> Date: Saturday, August 1, 2009, 6:08 PM > >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 11:09 PM, > >> Alan Dayley > >> wrote: > >> > Joshua, > >> > > >> > I put all your replies together in one long > document > >> and reread them. > >> > I am still confused a bit.  Enlightenment > via email > >> rarely occurs. > >> > However, I really want to understand your > position in > >> this discussion. > >> >  Let me summarize what I understand from > your > >> replies. > >> > > >> > ---[Start my paraphasing of your > comments]--- > >> > > >> > - There is a small group or groups of people > who keep > >> spinning off > >> > communities using tired marketing techniques. >  This > >> results in blogs > >> > but not true communities. > >> > > >> > - Some of these people cannot deal with > existing > >> structure and the > >> > efforts of the past. > >> > > >> > - These weak attempts do not articulate goals > or > >> purpose well, if at all. > >> > > >> > - We must honestly look at criticism to learn > and > >> improve. > >> > > >> > - These weak people need to address the > efforts of the > >> past and > >> > provide suggestions on how they can be > improved upon. > >> > > >> > - Getting political support will provide > legitimacy to > >> their efforts. > >> > > >> > - Phoenix will attract technology businesses > because > >> of the relative > >> > low cost and this will help improve things. > >> > > >> > - You have first hand experiences of weak, > marketing > >> fronted, > >> > community building efforts. > >> > > >> > - Many 'entrepreneurs' have grand ideas but > get > >> nowhere with them > >> > because they are not real businesses. > >> > > >> > - People at a co-working location or coffee > shop will > >> not help you > >> > with your business unless you pay them. > >> > > >> > - Most people at co-working started their one > person > >> business after > >> > being laid-off and are not serious about it. >  They > >> are really just > >> > looking for the next full time gig.  This > will get in > >> your way if you > >> > have real business work to do. > >> > > >> > - We must look truthfully at this issue if we > are to > >> make progress. > >> > > >> > - There are no serious incubators and > entrepreneurial > >> meetups in > >> > Phoenix.  No announcements on VC funding of > companies > >> so it's not > >> > really entrepreneurial growth. > >> > > >> > ---[End my paraphrasing of your comments]--- > >> > > >> > I see validity in every one of these > comments.  I > >> also think many of > >> > them can be balanced by the other point of > view.  I > >> still have > >> > questions, if I may ask, before I state too > much of my > >> own thinking. > >> > I want to learn more about your thinking. > >> > > >> > 1. What does "deal with existing structure" > mean? > >>  This confuses me, > >> > not know what structure you are talking > about. > >> > >>   Many user groups have been formed and continue > to > >> exist... how is > >> different?  other than its led by > >> person Y?  I mean dealing > >> with some of these groups I feel like Im back to > age 8 > >> trying to gain > >> admittance into the neighborhood treehouse.  > Perhaps I > >> should spend > >> more time drinking beer with these people?  > Seeing the > >> same small > >> group churning out 'communities' is at first > funny, then > >> annoying.  I > >> just see a real lack of serious intent, and unless > that is > >> noted > >> publicly, it makes all of us look bad.  I really > dont > >> think Im being > >> destructive or malicious here, Im pointing out > some valid > >> observations. > >> > >> > > >> > 2. To what efforts of the past are you > referring?  I > >> want to > >> > understand the size and nature of efforts to > creating > >> a community that > >> > you feel were legitimate but perhaps did not > work as > >> planned. > >> > >>   I remember when I first came to AZ that there > was an > >> tech > >> incubator...  what happened to it?  Which > >> political agents currently > >> support technology development in the valley?  > what do > >> they think > >> about your org?  these things are pretty > basic... > >> > >> > > >> > 3. What political support is needed?  You > mean > >> government funding of > >> > events or startups or just verbal support or > what? > >> > >>   I wouldn't expect funding, but it would be good > to > >> see some > >> political buy in.  Lack of just supports my > opinions, > >> that its really > >> as Lisa said, camouflage for poor organization. > >> Without any good > >> signposts, all this will produce are people who > get jaded > >> and > >> disaffected with regards to this location.  If > you had > >> something > >> together I doubt that a good politician would turn > you > >> down. > >> > >> > > >> > 4. Why is it wrong or a problem for someone > who is > >> laid-off to have > >> > grand ideas, talk about them and they never > come to > >> be? > >> > >>   Its not.  As I said, I don't find any of > these > >> things highly > >> offensive- but like you I am free to express > myself. > >> Sorry if its not > >> filled with abundant exaltations. > >> > >> > > >> > 5. Is it not conceivable that people might > help each > >> other in business > >> > efforts?  Isn't strengthening and creating > such a > >> culture a good idea > >> > or should such a goal not be pursued because > it is not > >> practically > >> > possible? > >> > >>   sure.  good thread btw.  -jmz > >> > >> > > >> > Alan > >> > > >> > > >> > On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:20 PM, Joshua > Zeidner > >> wrote: > >> >> another great one: > >> >> > >> >> "OK, my question stands. Where are the > incubators, > >> the "bootstrap" > >> >> seminars, the serious entrepreneurial > meetups in > >> Phoenix??? (crickets > >> >> chirping). Phoenix just ain't happening > as a > >> serious place where > >> >> serious people are doing serious things. > No one > >> wants it badly enough > >> >> here. This paper should be having at > least one > >> article a week on a new > >> >> startup and the VC firm who funded it. > >> Helloooo????? is anybody out > >> >> there...." > >> >> > >> >> a better way to phrase this: we need to > stop > >> pretending these > >> >> whimsical efforts churned out by local > >> self-employed marketing experts > >> >> are sufficient.  They are not.  We > should be > >> asking the hard > >> >> questions, not playing games. > >> >> > >> >> -jmz > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Joshua > >> Zeidner > >> wrote: > >> >>>  another point, honestly reading > through some > >> of the criticisms on > >> >>> azcentral and being of the cafe > dwelling creed > >> myself, I'd have to say > >> >>> that many of those points are > accurate.  I've > >> heard lots of > >> >>> 'entrepreneurs' with big ideas around > here who > >> never get anywhere with > >> >>> them.  Sorry, but a word press > template > >> doesn't make you an > >> >>> entrepreneur. > >> >>> > >> >>>  "These are the same people you see > at > >> Starbucks, Boarders or any > >> >>> other wi-fi hot spot, they are not > >> entrepreneurs they are attention > >> >>> (inappropriate term)." > >> >>> > >> >>>  "Many of the Co-Worker location > founders > >> tout other people to > >> >>> collaborate with and who can > "compensate for > >> your deficiencies". Do > >> >>> you really believe someone that you > are not > >> paying as an employee is > >> >>> going to somehow compensate for your > >> deficiencies and make your > >> >>> business better? That kind of help > doesn't > >> come without a price." > >> >>> > >> >>>  oh so true... > >> >>> > >> >>>  "You are more likely to get a bunch > of > >> people chatting to you over > >> >>> your "work" so you wont be > concentrating as > >> you should to focus on > >> >>> your business. Most of these people > started > >> businesses after being > >> >>> laid off. They are searching for a > new job and > >> they aren't really > >> >>> serious about their "businesses" so > how do you > >> expect them to give you > >> >>> valuable, serious advice. Are these > the kind > >> of people you need to > >> >>> compensate for your deficiencies? A > bunch of > >> people half-as running > >> >>> their "business" while searching for > a real > >> job and bothering you with > >> >>> their expertise that got them laid > off in the > >> first place." > >> >>> > >> >>>  oh so so true... > >> >>> > >> >>>  I would be willing to bet the > commenter > >> above is an tried and true > >> >>> successful entrepreneur.  Perhaps > the reason > >> I am so skeptical is > >> >>> because I know these kind of people > so well. > >> >>> > >> >>>  sorry I really wish I could be > more > >> supportive... but :  truth is > >> >>> the foundation of progress. > >> >>> > >> >>>  -jmz > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:28 PM, > Joshua > >> Zeidner > >> wrote: > >> >>>>  Alan, > >> >>>> > >> >>>>    Wish I had time to respond > to all > >> these points right now, not sure > >> >>>> you read me the way I would > prefer > >> however.  Its not so grave a > >> >>>> warning, just getting the word > out on my > >> first hand experiences.  Im > >> >>>> just one of many- but hopefully > an > >> impartial observer and someone > >> >>>> genuinely concerned for AZ. > >> >>>> > >> >>>>  all the best, jmz > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 3:12 PM, > Alan > >> Dayley > >> wrote: > >> >>>>> Josh, > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> I feel warned.  And I don't > >> understand the reason for such a strong warning. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> There are people in every > industry, > >> government or community who wish > >> >>>>> to fleece their "community" > for their > >> own profit instead of mutual > >> >>>>> benefit.  The trick is to > find the > >> positive people and ignore the > >> >>>>> rest.  Apply the same filter > with > >> every event, group or blogger in the > >> >>>>> lists and links I provided. >  I don't > >> expect bloggers or techies to be > >> >>>>> any different, as if being > techie > >> makes one a saint. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Some of those bloggers are > purely > >> commercial or completely neglected, > >> >>>>> I'm sure.  Some of the > groups or > >> events or sites listed are lousy, > >> >>>>> boring or poor marketing > excuses to > >> sell something.  Some are not out > >> >>>>> to create community but to > build a > >> "kingdom" for their own benefit. > >> >>>>> They are the duds. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Let's look at a few > positives: > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - Read the Gangplank > Manifesto on > >> their home page at > >> >>>>> http://gangplankhq.com.  That looks like > >> a great articulation of their > >> >>>>> goals and purpose.  Ones I > strongly > >> support! > >> >>>>> -- Read how the manifesto > came to be > >> on Derek's blog at > >> >>>>> http://derekneighbors.com/2009/07/collaborative-writing-or-how-the-gangplank-manifesto-was-written/ > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - Gangplank has hosted or is > hosting: > >> >>>>> -- MobiFest - a day long > conference on > >> developing for phones like > >> >>>>> iPhone or Android > >> >>>>> -- Gangplank Jr. - a 2-3 hour > Saturday > >> event for kids 5-15 to learn > >> >>>>> programming concepts > >> >>>>> -- Wordpress training classes > for > >> minimal cost or no-cost for non-profit orgs > >> >>>>> -- Laid Off Camp - a day > long > >> conference on job searching and entreprenuership > >> >>>>> -- Barcamp Pheonix - a day > long > >> conference on software development > >> >>>>> -- TEDx night - Watch ted.com > videos > >> and discuss them > >> >>>>> -- OpenPhoenix - a night of > open mic > >> music and entertainment > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - The last http://desertcodecamp.com/ was held on June 13th and > >> nearly > >> >>>>> filled DeVry's Phoenix campus > with > >> developers talking about code or > >> >>>>> making code.  Free lunch of > pizza and > >> sub sandwiches was provided too. > >> >>>>>  Put together by > volunteers. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - If you're into Microsoft > based > >> development tech, the people who > >> >>>>> maintain the http://azgroups.com site do an annual all-day event at > >> >>>>> venues like the Orphium > Theater and at > >> no cost to attendees.  Fine, > >> >>>>> it's marketing for MS but > it's put on > >> by volunteers here in the valley > >> >>>>> and a great way for people to > learn > >> about things that improve their > >> >>>>> career skills. > >> >>>>> (http://www.componentart.com/BLOGS/milos/archive/2009/06/02/scott-guthrie-event-2009-phoenix-az.aspx) > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - The local Ruby On Rails > group has > >> monthly meetings with around 30 > >> >>>>> regularly in attendance. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - The Java group is also well > attended > >> every month. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - The third http://podcampaz.com/ is coming up in November, put on > >> by > >> >>>>> voluteers at no cost > (donation > >> requested) to attendees.  Had about 350 > >> >>>>> people attend last year (if I > recall) > >> for two days of conference. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - The http://azentrepreneurship.com/ conference will be in > >> November > >> >>>>> for the forth year.  This > one costs > >> $100+ but should be as well > >> >>>>> attended as last year with > 200+ > >> people.  Funded and organized in part > >> >>>>> by a local venture capital > group. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - The first http://ignitephoenix.com event was held a year ago > with > >> a > >> >>>>> little over 100 in attendance > and has > >> grown to fill the 600 seat > >> >>>>> Theather at Tempe Center for > the Arts > >> back in June.  The connections > >> >>>>> made there live well past the > event. > >> >>>>> -- Oh, a city council member > and the > >> mayor of Tempe spoke this last > >> >>>>> time, though he was a bit > silly trying > >> to be Tempe exclusive.  That > >> >>>>> seems to be at least verbal > political > >> support. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> - The second ABLEConf on > FS/OSS is > >> being planned for October and > >> >>>>> should be better than last > year. (Go > >> Hans and team!) > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> I'm not going to go on, > though I could > >> point out several purely social > >> >>>>> events like http://phoenixfridaynights.com/, it's east and west > >> valley > >> >>>>> analogs, East Valley Thursday > Morning > >> breakfasts, Tempe Geeks Lunch, > >> >>>>> South Valley Geek Meet and > Eat and > >> Gangplank's Brown Gag lunch > >> >>>>> presentations every > Wednesday. > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Now, having said all of that > "giddy > >> blind optimism," I'd like to > >> >>>>> understand how the above does > not > >> address the efforts of the past or > >> >>>>> provide improvement over past > efforts. > >>  What are the real needs of the > >> >>>>> community, if not some of the > above? > >>  What would you suggest?  How can > >> >>>>> PLUG be a part of it? > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> Alan > >> >>>>> > >> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2009 at 1:34 > PM, > >> Joshua Zeidner > >> wrote: > >> >>>>>>  Alan, > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>    while I appreciate > your post, > >> and anyone who is making a sincere > >> >>>>>> effort to build community > in > >> Phoenix... be warned.  There are some > >> >>>>>> small groups who > periodically > >> spawn off new 'communities' every month > >> >>>>>> or so.  Look closely and > you see > >> the same few people with reused > >> >>>>>> marketing recipes.  Lots > of blog > >> and not too much community I'm > >> >>>>>> afraid.  Their efforts > amount to > >> some simple branding and putting up a > >> >>>>>> blog.  While these > things are not > >> really particularily offensive to > >> >>>>>> me, they do somewhat > detract from > >> interest in the real needs of the > >> >>>>>> community here.  Some of > these > >> people are just outright idiotic and > >> >>>>>> cannot deal with > existing > >> structure and refuse to accept the history > >> >>>>>> of efforts in the past. >  They > >> lack any articulation of their goals and > >> >>>>>> purpose.  Often times > they have > >> trouble organizing even small groups > >> >>>>>> of 2 or 3.  Dont forget > we've had > >> a tech incubator here.  Lets not > >> >>>>>> smack down sincere > criticism in > >> favor of giddy blind optimism, > >> >>>>>> remember you can't > improve without > >> criticism.  I would take these > >> >>>>>> people much more > seriously if they > >> addressed the efforts of the past > >> >>>>>> and perhaps suggested how > they are > >> going to improve on them, or > >> >>>>>> perhaps indicate what has > changed > >> that will make them a success. > >> >>>>>> Maybe seeking real > political > >> support would gain some legitimacy. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>    on the positive > side, I think > >> Phoenix will attract a lot of > >> >>>>>> technology business due > to its > >> relative low cost and no doubt you will > >> >>>>>> start to see community > >> infrastructure grow.  We are seeing some real > >> >>>>>> urban development > happening in Phx > >> metro which has me very excited.  I > >> >>>>>> think when the > macroeconomic > >> problems are sorted out we will see > >> >>>>>> downtown Phx bloom.  Im > hoping > >> that the average Arizonan gets involved > >> >>>>>> in the political process > and make > >> sure that the corruption stays out > >> >>>>>> of city and state > politics. > >>  Coming from NY, Im recognizing a lot of > >> >>>>>> positive development > trends in Phx > >> metro. > >> >>>>>> > >> >>>>>>  -jmz > >> >>>>> > >> > --------------------------------------------------- > >> >>>>> PLUG-discuss mailing list - 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