I couldn't resist jumping into this religious discussion.

Disclaimer: I think the world would be better with more Free Software
and more Open Source Software.  However, I use windows when it's useful.
I also think that it's likely that Google is doing evil, although they
likely don't see it as such.  I also use Google's web services.

Francis Earl wrote:
> On Thursday 09 July 2009 4:55:44 Ryan Rix wrote:
> > Did King George have the freedom to rule pre-revolutionary America the
> > way he did?
> 
> You picked a really bad topic to try to make your point, so I'll warn you 
> upfront, I was born and raised in England,

That's hilarious--that Ryan chose this topic, not that you're from England.

> and believe everything about that 
> country is greater than this - other than simple land mass of course.

A reasonable position for an English national.

> For the record, I had no choice when I moved here, I moved because my mother 
> moved and I was underage.
> 
> > Sure, but does that make it decent or right? We have the
> > nation we have today (sic) because of those ideals and beliefs that made
> > Americans Americans, and not Brits. 
> 
> The Americans revolted against taxes,

Not quite correct there.  The generally accepted phrase is "taxation without
representation", but it's probably more accurate to say "taxation without
sufficient benefits".  Many colonists felt abused and thought they would
be better off doing the abusing themselves. :)

> Americans currently pay some of the 
> highest tax rates in the world... so that worked out great.

But, some (most?) would say Americans receive reasonable benefits for those
taxes.  So, indeed it worked out fairly well.

> > The beliefs that everyone should be
> > equal and that no one should have absolute control over anyone else. 
> 
> Except for minor things like blacks and women, sure.
> 
> > And
> > that is what Free Software is about. That's what it was created to do
> > nigh on 26 years ago, regardless of what the OSI and the Open Source
> > movement has done to it.
> > I know I'm in the minority here, using GNU/Linux under the banner of
> > Free Software (my freedom is important) and not Open Source (powerful
> > applications that I can develop on using the open source method are
> > important), but my freedoms are damn important.
> 
> What you seem to be ignoring is my main point in the last message I sent to 
> this list - by insisting on your own freedom, you are not only settling for 
> second best quite often, but you are infringing on someone elses freedoms in 

How does using free software and encouraging others to do the same infringe
on anyone's freedom?

> the process. If you can't accept the terms they were free to demand for their 
> hard work, then either look for alternatives, or write your own.

Correct.  And, optionally, encourage others to do the same.

> I use FOSS software because to me it is simply superior for what I want to 
> accomplish on my system. Not only that, but it is exciting playing with the 
> new developments. Software is supposed to be a tool, not a religion.

That's fine.  Others seek a better future by encouraging more free software.
Why is that bad?  Now, anything can be taken to an extreme, and fanatics
are not suffered well; but most free software advocates I know are not
religious about it.

> > Injustice is a funny word. 
> 
> I chose it to directly refer to something you said, but I'll continue.
> 
> > Is it an injustice that you cannot further
> > improve on that application should you want to?
> 
> No, it is the wishes of the author of that software.
> 
> > Is it an injustice to be
> > unsure of whether your data is safe from the likes of third parties and
> > unscrupulous coders?
> 
> It is impossible to ensure security unless you unplug your system from the 
> internet.

Of course, but it is wise to do what one can.  Using software whose source
is available for inspection by you and others is a step in the right
direction.

> That said, you should read the privacy policies etc of the software 
> you choose sure.

Yes, but don't accept them at face value.  Privacy != security.

[snip]

> Going back to my earlier arguments about England vs America, and to wrap this 
> up, I'm basically saying idealism doesn't get you far. You have to be 
> realistic at some point,

Yes.  The challenge is deciding what is realistic.

> and in this case, all you'd need to do is stick to open sourced web services.

We'll see if google provides "open sourced web services".  It seems to me
that their critical web services are proprietary, closed source.  That is
their choice, of course; that's the way they make money.

> You'd still be working on an open sourced platform 
> with open sourced API's, but you'd still have the potential to reach EVERY 
> user on earth... which will draw more developers away from proprietary 
> platforms, which will make the open source system itself simply better. 
>
> All the FOSS world does right now is emulate things in proprietary systems, 

Like many sentences beginning with all, this is false.  I'll agree that
most software, open or proprietary, emulates things found in other software.
For example, Internet Explorer has "emulated" mozilla, netscape navigator,
and Firefox, among other browsers.

> ChromeOS has the potential to do some real innovation,

All software has the *potential* to innovate.  Whether ChromeOS will do so
is yet to be seen.  I hope so, but see no reason to expect it.

> and to actually gain
> the critical mass that might put more pressure on people like Nvidia, ATI, and
> Creative amongst others, so everyone will benefit if its a success.

I hope that's how it works out.

-Dale
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